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My experience with Bisimoto camshaft regrind

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    My experience with Bisimoto camshaft regrind

    This is a very long post. It carefully documents my interactions with Bisimoto on a camshaft regrind for my F22A cylinder head. I have tried to be completely factual in every detail. I would be interested in any response from the good folks on CB7tuner.com

    1) INITIAL CAMSHAFT REGRIND

    I ordered a Bisimoto Level 2 F22A camshaft regrind in March 2013. When it came, the specs on the cam card were as follows:
    INTAKE
    Opens: 1 deg BTDC
    Closes: 41 deg ABDC
    Intake duration: 258 deg
    EXHAUST
    Opens: -4 deg BBDC
    Closes: 27 deg ATDC
    Duration: 246 deg

    There are two problems with these cam card specs. First, the calculated duration, from the intake and exhaust opening, is completely different than the duration on the cam card. And neither the reported duration or the calculated duration for the exhaust matched the Level 2 spec.
    Intake Exhaust
    cam card duration 258 246
    calculated duration 222 203
    Level 2 duration spec 222 225

    I send an email to Bisimoto on 4/12/13 with the above information, asking for help in sorting the information out and understanding what is right and what is wrong. Bisimoto did not respond to my email.

    Janet Ruvalcaba from Bisimoto sent me an email on 4/18/13, asking if I had received the camshaft and the other parts I ordered and asking me "if there is anything else that we can assist you with?" In response, I resent her the information from my 4/12/13 email. Bisimoto did not respond to this email either.

    2) CAMSHAFT MEASUREMENT

    As I did not receive a response from Bisimoto, I decided I needed to better understand what was going on before I took any further action. So, I bought a degree wheel, dial indicator, and mount and installed them on the cylinder head. I set up the dial indicator to measure the valve lift at the top of the valve retainer, set the valve lash to zero, zeroed out the dial indication, took measurements for both the 1st cylinder and the 4th cylinder, and rotated the camshaft twice to double-check my measurements. My measured TDC and BDC might be slightly off, as I did this off of the timing marks on the cylinder head, not the crankshaft, but the duration and lift should be pretty accurate.

    I recorded measurements at every 0.050" lift, but for brevity I will only report the duration at 0.050" valve lift and the total lift here (I sent the full list of measurements to Bisimoto with an email on 4/30/13).

    INTAKE Duration @0.050" Lift
    Measured 201 0.404"
    Level 2 spec 222 0.400"

    EXHAUST Duration @0.050" Lift
    Measured 225 0.378"
    Level 2 spec 222 0.372"

    So, I sent another email to Bisimoto on 4/30/13, asking (a) why the intake duration was so far off from the Level 2 spec and (b) asking again why the cam card numbers were so far off. Bisimoto did not respond to this email either.

    3) BISIMOTO RESPONSE

    As Bisimoto had not responded to any of my emails, I called Julio on 5/9/13. He was very friendly on the phone and said he would discuss this with his engineering department and get back to me. Following is the email that Julio sent me on 5/13/13, in its entirety:
    Greetings John,
    Hope you had a fantastic weekend and thank you again for your interest in Bisimoto technology for your build! After further discussing with the engineering department regarding your camshaft numbers, they had shared that final numbers will be dictated by type and profile of submitted camshaft core. Although every camshaft is ground down utilizing a master with specifications listed on the camshaft card, final number may slightly vary due to differences in models and condition of cores. However, it is still recommend to shoot for a 110 center line for optimal performance. If you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to ask. Thanks.

    I sent an email response to Julio the same day. My primary point was that the intake duration was 21 degrees out of spec, which is far outside his statement that the "final number may vary slightly". I also wrote that I had calculated the centerline from my measurements and they were 110 degrees for both intake and exhaust.

    Even though Julio said in his email, "If you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to ask", Bisimoto did not respond to my email of 5/13/13, either.

    4) WEB CAMSHAFT REGRIND

    Over the course of the preceeding month and a half, I had done a lot of research on camshafts. What I learned made me very nervous about putting in a camshaft with 21 degrees longer exhaust duration than intake duration. Few camshafts are ground with significantly longer exhaust duration than intake duration, plus the primary camshaft factor affecting power is the intake valve closing point. Thus, the extended exhaust duration on the camshaft Bisimoto sent me seemed like it would degrade my idle without any significant power gains. In addition, the Bisimoto cam was ground with a 110 degree lobe separation angle and somewhat wider separation angles are supposed to be better for higher rpm power.

    So, I went out and bought anther camshaft core and called up Web cams directly. They were happy to do a camshaft regrind for me. I asked for more exhaust valve lift and a 114 degree lobe separation angle. I measured it after I got the regrind back. The intake duration and lift were almost identical to the Bisimoto camshaft, the exhaust duration and lift matched the intake duration and lift (exhaust lift was up from 0.378" to 0.400"), and the lobe separation was exactly 114 degrees (instead of 110 degrees for the Bisimoto cam). The duration is actually fairly conservative, but compared to the F22A6 cam it has about 6 degrees more duration and a lot more lift, 0.400" compare to 0.365". (Yes, while I doing all of this I also measured a F22A1 and a F22A6 camshaft. I'll post those specs in a separate thread.)

    5) FINAL LETTER TO BISIMOTO

    I had no use for the camshaft, so I boxed it up and sent it, along with a letter or explanation, to Bisimoto on 7/29/13. In the letter I acknowledged that I was not supposed to return the camshaft without a return shipping authorization. I went on to say that the camshaft was severely misground, as documented in my multiple phone calls and my emails dated 4/12/2013, 4/18/2013, 4/30/2013, 5/9/2013, and 5/13/2013, so I had bought a properly reground camshaft from Web and had no use for their camshaft. I also suggested that a reputable company that produced a part so badly out of spec would stand behind their product and issue a refund.

    Bisimoto never responded to this letter either.

    If anyone wants a camshaft with 24 more degrees of exhaust duration than intake, maybe Bisimoto will sell it to you cheap. It's already been fully paid for.

    #2
    honestly. i wouldn't expect a camshaft to come from them that's "out of spec". how long have you been working on building and rebuilding engines? not trying to put down, just trying to figure out. being that you JUST got the tools to measure the degrees on the cam, i doubt not for long. Bisi has been doing it for a while.

    what is it exactly you were looking for?

    did you talk to the Julio and let him know the cam was out of spec and that you needed another one? Don't expect Bisi to email you back. that's like emailing the owner of Wal-Mart or calling Donald Trump and expecting to get a call back from them. you'll get an email or call back from the staff. the owner is most likely busy on a trip for the company or building something or in the middle doing research for more parts.

    and like he stated, all the cores that are sent in are different and vary because of the condition they're sent in. unless you get a BRAND new cam, i would expect the measurements to be SLIGTHLY off. not a whole lot off. but slightly. correct me if im wrong.

    Comment


      #3
      that sucks youd have to double check "reputable" vendors. at least you didnt run it in your engine and mess it up. so basically if you ran this youd have a lopey exhaust like you had something but at the end of it there was no power increase..and how much did this experiment cost like 400 bucks or so?.. sounds like if I get more involved in my engine ill be sure to buy some cores or blanks and send them to a real speed shop after discussing what id like..... imagine how many out of spec cams are out there..and if anyone gave a rats ass you definitely wouldnt be getting the cold shoulder im sure with all that capital gain theres enough people to check emails and answer phones. id be mandrin snapping long distance if it was my shop lawlz

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by Shadow1 View Post
        honestly. i wouldn't expect a camshaft to come from them that's "out of spec".
        Agreed. That's why I went to so much trouble to verify a problem before I called Julio.

        Originally posted by Shadow1 View Post
        how long have you been working on building and rebuilding engines? not trying to put down, just trying to figure out. being that you JUST got the tools to measure the degrees on the cam, i doubt not for long.
        I rebuilt a Ford Cortina engine twice in the early 1970s, rebuilt a Dodge Dart engine around 1975, swapped an H22 into my Accord wagon in 1998, swapped a B16 into my 1993 Civic VX in 2003. I've never had camshaft problems before, which is why I never bought a dial indicator before. Also, because I had not used one before, I measured two different cylinder and I measured each of these twice. I got consistent results for each measurement (within a couple degrees), so I am pretty confident that my measurements were in the ballpark. Also, I called Web Cam after measuring their camshaft and they confirmed my measurements were accurate.

        Originally posted by Shadow1 View Post
        did you talk to the Julio and let him know the cam was out of spec and that you needed another one?
        As I said in step 3), after I got no response to 3 emails - and after I was pretty certain of the actual camshaft specs - I called Julio and talked directly to him. Julio's response was, essentially, that there was nothing wrong with the camshaft and this was normal variance.

        Originally posted by Shadow1 View Post
        and like he stated, all the cores that are sent in are different and vary because of the condition they're sent in. unless you get a BRAND new cam, i would expect the measurements to be SLIGTHLY off. not a whole lot off. but slightly. correct me if im wrong.
        I agree. But 21 degrees is not "slightly" off. This is a huge amount. The difference between the F22A1 and the F22A6 is 6 degrees. The difference between Bisimoto's Level 1 and Level 2 regrinds is 10 degrees. He was off by 21 degrees.

        Comment


          #5
          I'm not sure if you're hoping for exposure so that your problem will be fixed, or if you're just sharing this as food for thought for others. Either way, I'm glad you've got a solution (the Web cam), and I hope Bisimoto takes the time to set this straight.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by wagon-r View Post
            Agreed. That's why I went to so much trouble to verify a problem before I called Julio.


            I rebuilt a Ford Cortina engine twice in the early 1970s, rebuilt a Dodge Dart engine around 1975, swapped an H22 into my Accord wagon in 1998, swapped a B16 into my 1993 Civic VX in 2003. I've never had camshaft problems before, which is why I never bought a dial indicator before. Also, because I had not used one before, I measured two different cylinder and I measured each of these twice. I got consistent results for each measurement (within a couple degrees), so I am pretty confident that my measurements were in the ballpark. Also, I called Web Cam after measuring their camshaft and they confirmed my measurements were accurate.


            As I said in step 3), after I got no response to 3 emails - and after I was pretty certain of the actual camshaft specs - I called Julio and talked directly to him. Julio's response was, essentially, that there was nothing wrong with the camshaft and this was normal variance.


            I agree. But 21 degrees is not "slightly" off. This is a huge amount. The difference between the F22A1 and the F22A6 is 6 degrees. The difference between Bisimoto's Level 1 and Level 2 regrinds is 10 degrees. He was off by 21 degrees.
            Dag. 21 degrees. Yeah. That is a bit too much. Yeah. In this kind of situation i would hope Bisi would contact you. Its a customer issue that could have actually messed up an engine.

            Why go with a Level 2 cam anyway? Did you have sny other plans for the motor?

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Shadow1 View Post
              Why go with a Level 2 cam anyway? Did you have sny other plans for the motor?
              I've been researching this and gathering parts for about a year (I don't have a lot of free time). Planned mods are (I have bought most of these parts already):
              Web camshaft regrind
              Bisimoto Pro-Valve springs
              Bisimoto Cam Gear
              Bisimotor F22 header
              MaganaFlow 2.5" catalyst
              2.5" custom bent exhaust with Integra Type R muffler
              H23 intake manifold (getting all the associated parts has been a pain)
              H22 throttle body
              Prelude intake
              Head will be milled to raise compression ratio (after I have clayed it to see how much can safely be milled)
              H22 fuel injectors (cleaned and balanced by Mr. Injector)
              P72 ECU (so I can maintain IAB operation), chipped with Hondata S100
              Windage tray
              Quaife LSD

              I have been talking to PureTuning in Toledo, Ohio, who has been helping me with putting together a decent package. After it is all put together, I will have it tuned by PureTuning. But I lost 4 months dealing with the camshaft, so I'm not sure when it will be done.
              Last edited by wagon-r; 09-17-2013, 08:54 AM.

              Comment


                #8
                You don't say........

                Comment


                  #9
                  Emails to Bisi are pointless from my experience. I prefer to call them 6 times and try all the depts since they all tend to go to voicemail. Don't worry you will get through at some point.

                  From my experience thus far with Bisi (the company as a whole), it's more about the money than customer loyalty. As I mentioned in my build thread I purchase the 86mm piston/rod combo. Well the sleeves are no longer made for the F motor so I have to use H sleeves and they start at 87mm bore. I sent a bunch of emails and finally just kept calling until I got a person on the phone. I explained the situation to them and he said sure we can swap the pistons out for you but we have to charge you a 25% restocking fee. Now I could understand if I wanted money back but no it was an unfortunate part of planning ahead for a 20+ year old car build on my part. I wanted to swap pistons and buy more parts all at the same time and they still want a 25% restocking fee on top of that. Not really amped on buying anything else from them.

                  Planned to buy valves, retainers, springs, and camshaft from them but I'm really thinking about going to KMS instead. Maybe get a camshaft elsewhere. I'm gonna try again to get this restocking fee dropped because it really is a rip off to those that want an exchange not a return. After reading this thread I just don't know now.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    OP,
                    I am not familiar with this incident, however there is not one company on this planet fixated to f-series powerplants like Bisimoto. Julio had been excused from the organization, for a few weeks now. Kindly email me your phone number at Bisi@bisimoto.com, and I will call you promptly to find out directly what happened.
                    At times, I wish I could do every thing myself, and good talent is hard to find. Thanks.
                    'Bisimoto D15/D16/F18/F22
                    World's Fastest and Quickest TRUE unibody all motor FWD
                    World's Fastest All Motor SOHC Honda
                    1988 CRX Unibody, D16 full street: 12.68 @ 107mph
                    1988 CRX Unibody, D15 full race: 10.77 @ 123mph
                    1988 CRX Unibody, F22A full race: 9.81 @ 139mph
                    2006 Insight Unibody, F22A: 9.26 @ 152mph
                    NEW!:www.bisimoto.com: parts, dyno tuning, apparel, technology!
                    Bisimoto's Facebook page
                    478 HP naturally aspirated F22A!!!

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Nice!

                      like someone on here said Never give up! Im glad to see Bisi has replied or at least it appears.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        id work for bisimoto if i lived in socal but i dont. i feel like a lot of the sales representatives don't know what they are talking about but who am i to judge right?

                        if i was so good then why am i stil on cb7tuner blabbing away?
                        I <3 G60.

                        0.5mm Oversized Stainless valves and bronze guides available. Pm me please.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Bisimoto View Post
                          OP,
                          I am not familiar with this incident, however there is not one company on this planet fixated to f-series powerplants like Bisimoto. Julio had been excused from the organization, for a few weeks now. Kindly email me your phone number at Bisi@bisimoto.com, and I will call you promptly to find out directly what happened.
                          At times, I wish I could do every thing myself, and good talent is hard to find. Thanks.
                          I appreciate the response. I just sent you an email with my phone number, along with one of the 5 emails I previously sent Bisimoto and a copy of the letter I included when I returned the improperly ground camshaft.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Bisimoto View Post
                            OP,
                            I am not familiar with this incident, however there is not one company on this planet fixated to f-series powerplants like Bisimoto. Julio had been excused from the organization, for a few weeks now. Kindly email me your phone number at Bisi@bisimoto.com, and I will call you promptly to find out directly what happened.
                            At times, I wish I could do every thing myself, and good talent is hard to find. Thanks.
                            haha. i was just about to send him a PM and/or email about this thread. im sure he doesn't want his good name going to ruin because of some cruddy employees.

                            good job Bisi for chiming in.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              I am very interested in learning how this thread develops since I have a Bisimoto level 2 cam sitting on my shelf, encased in the tube for a few years.

                              I just hope this one will have positive end result from dealing the company.
                              A&P-IA

                              Comment

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