F22a6 vs H23 intake manifold

[Granite CB7]

Okay, here is what I'm talking about. The first pic is Green cb7's (F22a6) and the second belongs to Cokinut (H23a1). F22aX rotor compared to the H23a1, both being 5 speeds.


H23's throttle rotor is larger!

Dan

[owequitit]

The throttle rotor is larger on the H series, but your existing cable should work. The longer moment arm would cause a more rapid throttle opening for a given amount of cable movement. I.E. the engine would feel more responsive, whereas the desire with the F22 was to make it as smooth as possible.

The rotors are interchangable, so if you wanted to put the F22 rotor on there, it can be done.

[crewfish13]

The throttle rotor is larger on the H series, but your existing cable should work. The longer moment arm would cause a more rapid throttle opening for a given amount of cable movement. I.E. the engine would feel more responsive, whereas the desire with the F22 was to make it as smooth as possible.

I'd have to disagree with this statement. With a larger throttle rotor, you will be able to apply more torque to the throttle with the same amount of force, but the amount of pedal movement required to completely open/close the throttle is increased (larger circumference = more cable needed).

The smaller rotor would actually feel more responsive, because less pedal play is needed to get from one extreme to the other. However the pedal would be marginally harder to push

I'd guess the main advangatge of a larger rotor is more precise control of the rotor's position, allowing you to more finely control the air intake of your engine. Let's face it, you don't need all that much torque to open a butterfly valve.

As for a driver like me, who usually has the pedal all the way down when accelerating, it's probably a non-issue.

[ZigenBallZ]

The throttle rotor is larger on the H series, but your existing cable should work. The longer moment arm would cause a more rapid throttle opening for a given amount of cable movement. I.E. the engine would feel more responsive, whereas the desire with the F22 was to make it as smooth as possible.

The rotors are interchangable, so if you wanted to put the F22 rotor on there, it can be done.

I have to laugh at this response because this sounds similar to the theory behind the weapon R throttle rotor... yet people laugh at the notion that it is helpful at all...

[owequitit]

I have to laugh at this response because this sounds similar to the theory behind the weapon R throttle rotor... yet people laugh at the notion that it is helpful at all...

You can laugh all you want. Different diameter throttle rotors do make a slight difference if nothing else is changed. OEM's do it all the time to increase the feeling of responsiveness off the line. Case in point: the discussion we are currently having. If you want me to explain it mathematically, let me know. I will type out all of the equations and fill in the numbers.

Also, I was backwards with the statement that the longer moment arm would increase response. I appologize.

Just like with underdrive pulleys (it is ultimately a gear ratio). If the rotor was turning the cable, a smaller diameter would result in a slower response, but if the cable is turning the rotor (which it is), then a larger diameter would result in a slower response.

I.E. An Unorthodox crank pulley is smaller than stock because at a given RPM, the belt is traveling a shorter distance, because there is a shorter circumference around the pulley. 1 turn of the pulley = a certain number of inches worth of travel. If we make this distance smaller, than in one revolution of the engine, less belt travels over the pulley = slower speed at the accessory.

AEM underdrives are the exact opposite. They are larger than stock, because the crank pulley stays the same, which means that at a given RPM the amount of belt traveling around the pulley is constant. Since we can't change the speed of the belt, we can increase the distance it has to travel at the accessory, effectively slowing it down.

So in short crewfish13 caught me in a lie. Hey, we all make mistakes. I got this turned around in my head, because gear ratios can be a bitch.

[crewfish13]

So in short crewfish13 caught me in a lie. Hey, we all make mistakes. I got this turned around in my head, because gear ratios can be a bitch.

No harm, no foul. Good to hear someone actually putting thought into things and trying to be helpful rather than just flaming everyone.

[ZigenBallZ]

You can laugh all you want. Different diameter throttle rotors do make a slight difference if nothing else is changed. OEM's do it all the time to increase the feeling of responsiveness off the line. Case in point: the discussion we are currently having. If you want me to explain it mathematically, let me know. I will type out all of the equations and fill in the numbers.

I meant laughing in a good way my friend... I have used a weapon R throttle rotor and seen it's benefits... yet no one would listen when I said that it did make a difference....

[HondaFan81]

As someone previously stated and more...parts that interchange or are same and parts that are different...


Same/Alike Parts:

- F22a6/H22/H23 IAB plates w/vacuum diaphragm (butterfly valve plate)
- H22/H23 throttle-body
- H22/H23 intake plenum (upper-half of intake manifold)
- F22a6/H22/H23 throttle position sensor

Parts That Are Different:

- H22 & H23 intake runners
- F22a6 throttle-body vs H22/H23 throttle-body (2mm larger than F22a6)
- F22a6 vs H22/H23 intake runners

[owequitit]

I just wanted to comment about the low end torque on the F22A6 runners.

I have not run H23 runners, or made dyno pulls, so I can't quantify exactly how much was gained where.

Having said that, H22 manifolds seem to be more plentiful than H23s and I KNOW that F22A6 manifolds are more plentiful. H22 guys also seem to be more eager to step up to a bigger and better manifold, and have many more options available. I personally have had much better luck finding the H22 manifolds just laying around.

So, perhaps the more common setup will be an H22 plenum (same as H23, as previously stated) with A6 runners.

I had a significantly noticable gain in low end AND topend with the H22 plenum/TB and F22A6 runners. Everyone who has ridden in the car has commented on how much better it pulls down low. It also pulls much harder in the top end than it did with the A6 plenum. Like I said, I don't know exactly how it compares with H23 runners, but you don't have to worry about bottom end with A6 runners for sure.

Again, I haven't done anything with an H23, but the geometries on the throttle rotor from the manual tranny H22 I have and the F22 were exactly the same. the F22 had a larger overall diameter only because of the auto tranny kickdown cable...but the throttle cable geometry was identical.

[HondaFan81]

owequitit:

Nice comments of personal experience to go with this thread

I should post back my first-hand experiences when I installed the ported H23 intake manifold (plenum and runners) and stock H23 TB onto my red Accord with a F22a1 motor. I'll have have F22 headwork and Delta 272 cam, intake, header, 2.25" exhaust...bleh, prolly not a good test

[owequitit]

I have actually been thinking about a regrind too. I will probably just put the rest of the H22 in though...

I wish I had tons of extra cash, because I would like to just play with the F22 and see what happens. One thing is clear though, with some proper bolt ons, they respond EXTREMELY well, which is kind of amazing considering the low compression and the pedestrian valve train.

I can make an educated guesstimate on some of the stuff close to K20 increases.

Take the IM for example. I know that an A6 mani and cam is good for 10 crank HP with an A6 exhaust manifold, so a larger increase could be argued with a full exhaust. The H23 plenum "feels" like it made about as much of a difference as the A6 cam and mani did so, that would be almost 20HP from a hybrid, but still OEM intake manifold and a VERY mild, and still OEM, cam upgrade.

Since there is typically more HP to be found in the exhaust, it would be nice to have a header on the order of RMF or SMSP. SMSP was getting 10 whp out of a stock dual point injection D16!

Sorry I got a little off topic. You can delete this if necessary, I just am still baffled by how much power was locked up in the intake!

[HondaFan81]

I have actually been thinking about a regrind too. I will probably just put the rest of the H22 in though...

I wish I had tons of extra cash, because I would like to just play with the F22 and see what happens. One thing is clear though, with some proper bolt ons, they respond EXTREMELY well, which is kind of amazing considering the low compression and the pedestrian valve train.

I can make an educated guesstimate on some of the stuff close to K20 increases.

Take the IM for example. I know that an A6 mani and cam is good for 10 crank HP with an A6 exhaust manifold, so a larger increase could be argued with a full exhaust. The H23 plenum "feels" like it made about as much of a difference as the A6 cam and mani did so, that would be almost 20HP from a hybrid, but still OEM intake manifold and a VERY mild, and still OEM, cam upgrade.

Since there is typically more HP to be found in the exhaust, it would be nice to have a header on the order of RMF or SMSP. SMSP was getting 10 whp out of a stock dual point injection D16!

Sorry I got a little off topic. You can delete this if necessary, I just am still baffled by how much power was locked up in the intake!

Potential of the F22 will be found in my white Accord project setup, no worries

[owequitit]

Sweetness.

Is the white going to be stock block?

[HondaFan81]

Sweetness.

Is the white going to be stock block?

F**k no!! Check out my sig and click on the "white project". Try 12:1 for size.

[owequitit]

Cool. I do need to check those out. I tried once, but I didn't have enough time to read everything and haven't gotten a chance to go back since.

I wanted to see what it would do with the stock compression and max that out and then go from there. That is why I said LOTS of extra money LOL!

OK back to the subject.