MAHLE gold series pistons...

[zipcreature]

???.. how was i being defensive.. because im correcting you?... just that you stated in one of your original post.. that you CANNOT install forged pistons without sleeving the block which is a false statement...

im not acting like a know-it-all.. wtf.. does everyone have to get all (HEY COCKY MEMBER BLAH BLAH BLAH) when someone actually has an educated idea to add to the thread.. wtf.. ?

...Now he is defensive.

- Zipcreature

[Dirty Harry]

^^ if you are using 87mm bore pistons (stock sized) then there is no need to sleeve the block what-so-ever.. why would you have to sleeve the block.. just because they are forged pistons??

that doesnt make any sense??? although yes a boost application is entirely different since heat and pressure are critical..

only pistons that are over-sized.. say 20thou.th's need boring of the block.. which when it comes to h22a's would be a good idea to change to full iron sleeves.. since we all know the stories about the older h22a sleeves.. and their fibre-reinforced layer approx 0.5mm from the sleeve face.. etc etc..

i currently have SRP 87mm 11.5:1 pistons ordered... no machine work required here...


and for whoever said MAHLE is the only company that sends (performance) rings with their pistons.. is wrong.. any major company, like, JE...WISECO... ARIAS.. can be ordered with or without rings.. it is the customers choice..

our shop orders in pistons frequently.. direct from whichever company.. and always recieve rings with the pistons

I DARE you to take a stock H22A block and install any aftermarket piston set in it besides the coated MAHLE ones.

[4genaccordfreak]

I DARE you to take a stock H22A block and install any aftermarket piston set in it besides the coated MAHLE ones.

so if everyone else is so smart ^^ like this guy..

if i am wrong in any way i'll admit it.. altho i wont sit here and run my mouth and make useless comments like that...

so if anyone would care to ENLIGHTEN all of us for the reason why.. forged pistons CANNOT be used (even with a stock 87mm bore piston) on a STOCK SLEEVED h22a block... and tell me why you all think MAHLE pistons are your ultimate life-saver when it comes to N/A building...

and yes i already know that the fiber-reinforced sleeves are a bitch... but i would like to know ANYONE on here that can give me a legit reason why MAHLE golds are more appropriate than say.. JE or Wiseco pistons.. ?? im curious?

because i have experienced quite a few n/a AND boost apps.. where pistons were used on stock sleeves.. some of which the motors where making 320-360WHP.. with no problems

[koolkoreanked]

forged pistons do not mix with the stock sleeves, or at least the older frm sleeves. You can add them if you want, no one is stopping you but you'll be rebuilding the motor soon after installing the pistons. The two materials just dont rub one another the right way... Same reason why you sleeve when boosting the h22. You dont sleeve because the stock sleeves are weak, there strong enough for boost. You sleeve cause the sleeves dont mix with the forged pistons.

[4genaccordfreak]

forged pistons do not mix with the stock sleeves, or at least the older frm sleeves. You can add them if you want, no one is stopping you but you'll be rebuilding the motor soon after installing the pistons. The two materials just dont rub one another the right way... Same reason why you sleeve when boosting the h22. You dont sleeve because the stock sleeves are weak, there strong enough for boost. You sleeve cause the sleeves dont mix with the forged pistons.

so you are trying to say that the pistons and sleeve walls dont like RUBBING together??? ummm as far as i know.. the piston skirt.. OR crown should never ever touch the sleeve wall at anytime.. the piston rings are the only parts that do... and no im sorry but from all the research i have done and all the ppl i have talked to over the years.. i have never heard anyone say.. they sleeved the block because their pistons DONT MIX with the stock sleeves..

[RidnLow]

JDM 93 h22a

I have a quick question are the sleevs in a 93 jdm h22a weak? i plan on adding forged pistons into my bottom end but im not going to boost my engine though. i plan on having all motor. the mahle gold series pistons that you are talking about with the coating on them would they be a good choice for a 300 hp h22a? how much does resleeving the block usually run at?

[koolkoreanked]

I have a quick question are the sleevs in a 93 jdm h22a weak? i plan on adding forged pistons into my bottom end but im not going to boost my engine though. i plan on having all motor. the mahle gold series pistons that you are talking about with the coating on them would they be a good choice for a 300 hp h22a? how much does resleeving the block usually run at?

The sleeve are not weak on the a 93 h22a. When you go forged you have to resleeve end of story unless you go mahle according to the website... I've heard good things and bad things about mahle and would do it only on a budget. Resleeving will generally cost over 1g including the sleeves.

[Dirty Harry]

ummm as far as i know.. the piston skirt should never ever touch the sleeve wall at anytime

lol

cha-ching

EDIT: BTW, I figured since you seem not easily swayed from misinformation, that I should verify the claims posted above in this thread by members other than yourself.

When using aftermarket forged pistons in a stock H22 block (those without special preparation like the MAHLE), the motor MUST be resleeved. All H-series engines have a coating on the sleeves called Nikasil. We should all know about these sleeves... everyone refers to them as FRM. Whatever you call it, they are made of carbon fiber and aluminum oxide. (I should mention as well, that no matter what gen H you have, 9296 or 9701, you are still cursed with this sleeve. Take your motor apart and see if a magnet sticks to the cylinder wall. )The Nikasil coating is then added for better oil retention and ultimately, reduced friction. Normally, when throwing your stock slugs out of the garage in favor of forged pieces, you want to hone the cylinders first so you end up with a good surface for break-in of the rings and pistons. Performing a normal hone on a stock H will cause you to LOSE that Nikasil coating, leaving the raw FRM sleeve naked. This sleeve is a terrible surface to try to get new rings/pistons to seat on. It will wear incredibly fast and will end up galling up on the piston skirts (but wait, they don't ever touch, right? okay...). So let's say you want to SKIP honing (bad) and just put new pistons/rings in. Most new rings you will find are completely incompatible with the Nikasil lining and will not seal anywhere close to intended. When you have a hard coating such as Nikasil you want a soft ring set, otherwise sealing and break-in will never properly occur. Why don't people sleeve F22s you say? Well, standard ductile iron sleeve = soft (in comparison) and therefore is compatible with the harder ring sets available from just about all new makers today.


Still don't care? Okay, go ahead and put those forged pistons in your stock H. Someone tried this already... they used a nice forged set from JE. I don't know of the long-term effects about this combination (because there weren't any!) The rings cut into the walls of the sleeves and the motor was seized within minutes. Every cylinder was damaged. Cooling was not the issue, and oil pressure was fine also.


So, there you have it, 4genaccordfreak. Wait a minute... what was that you said, about useless comments? You can keep coming back if you want, but I suggest you just sit there and let it sink in that you have just been owned...much less work on your part.

Cliff notes: Resleeve the fucking motor (or use the MAHLE slugs, if you trust them).



P.S. Nice photoshopping on your car in the sig You should take the money you didn't spend on the wheels, lips, and sideskirts, and go get your H22 resleeved.

[4genaccordfreak]

^^ some of your info is correct.. and some is missing.... so quit the bashing

yes i will say that i was incorrect about all the h22a motors using the FRM/nikasil sleeves.. i give you that...

ALTHOUGH.. we made some phone calls from the shop today.. and the info we found out is quite relieving...

specific company's DO INFACT make h22a specific piston rings for the stock FRM sleeves.. and MY main focus was SRP (another line developed by JE) although i am confident that other major piston manufactureres have this same option... it has nothing to do with FORGED PISTONS in general.. it is the ring sets that are different... and since my choice was SRP (since they are cheaper and this setup is fairly temporary) they provide the option of either ring-sets for aftermarket sleeves.. OR a seperate ring set for the FRM sleeves.. (although over-sized pistons are out of the question).. so to FINALLY have a correct answer for the original comment.. YES Forged pistons can be used with stock (unhoned) sleeves.. with no problems.. AS LONG AS the choice of piston comes with the option of the special FRM/Nikasil compatible ring-set!

and yes my sig is photochopped.. who's isnt.. those wheels are in my garage (15" Racing Sparco NS-II's.. and no the front lip(s) are not altered what-so-ever.. those are 2 lips (budget.. i know)).. dont need to be a retard about it..

PS: i dont think you PWNED anybody.. because you all (and including myself) up till today didnt know that OTHER companies AND Mahle make specific products to run forged pistons in a stock sleeve application on an H22a.. if you dont believe me.. do some research yourself.. email,,call,, whatever..
as for you Pwning me? not this time..

[Dirty Harry]

^^ some of your info is correct.. and some is missing.... so quit the bashing

yes i will say that i was incorrect about all the h22a motors using the FRM/nikasil sleeves.. i give you that...

ALTHOUGH.. we made some phone calls from the shop today.. and the info we found out is quite relieving...

specific company's DO INFACT make h22a specific piston rings for the stock FRM sleeves.. and MY main focus was SRP (another line developed by JE) although i am confident that other major piston manufactureres have this same option... it has nothing to do with FORGED PISTONS in general.. it is the ring sets that are different... and since my choice was SRP (since they are cheaper and this setup is fairly temporary) they provide the option of either ring-sets for aftermarket sleeves.. OR a seperate ring set for the FRM sleeves.. (although over-sized pistons are out of the question).. so to FINALLY have a correct answer for the original comment.. YES Forged pistons can be used with stock (unhoned) sleeves.. with no problems.. AS LONG AS the choice of piston comes with the option of the special FRM/Nikasil compatible ring-set!

and yes my sig is photochopped.. who's isnt.. those wheels are in my garage (15" Racing Sparco NS-II's.. and no the front lip(s) are not altered what-so-ever.. those are 2 lips (budget.. i know)).. dont need to be a retard about it..

PS: i dont think you PWNED anybody.. because you all (and including myself) up till today didnt know that OTHER companies AND Mahle make specific products to run forged pistons in a stock sleeve application on an H22a.. if you dont believe me.. do some research yourself.. email,,call,, whatever..
as for you Pwning me? not this time..

You did say that some of my info is correct and some is missing. If you go around searching, you'll find what I stated in the last post and more... sure, I didn't post up all there is to know about the subject, I didn't think it would be needed. It's all the fuck over the web. The post was long enough.

After all of this, if you STILL want to go ahead and NOT resleeve your H block when using different pistons, you sure as hell better have the right rings (such as the ones you found out about) AND properly prepared/coated pistons. Why do you think the MAHLE gold series have coated skirts? Show me in my post where I said "MAHLE is the ONLY company that makes piston and ring sets that will work in the H series stock sleeves". MAHLE is the only one I knew about. I didn't care to research for any others. I'll never be interested in cutting corners like that. You are in a worse position than even the stock-sleeve 9296 H22A guys because your block is open deck.

Anyway, I've spent way more than enough time on this. I could not possibly care less about whether you think you're owned or not. All I know is I would absolutely hate to be in your shoes knowledge-wise. I will gladly shell out the ~$1k to ensure I have bulletproof sleeves, and to be able to use a mainstream, proven piston/ring set. What you want to do is NOT the same as sticking forged pistons in a stock F22 block.

Anyone else who knows their shit will tell you the same thing...if you're gonna spend the time and money to build a motor, do it right the first time.

[KillerCam282]

AFAIK, Nikasil (nickel-based silicon) is the ex-factor for aluminum to rub up against almost any material with little to no friction. This may help validate Mahle's no resleeve claim. JE, SRP, or Arias has not offered performance coatings on any of their pistions. If you got them, you had to ship them to a place like the Powder Barons, for a performance coating. And FRM (fiber reinforced metal) was utalized in the H22 to help reduce the weight of the engine. AFAIK, even the pistons are made of FRM. Which is why when Dr. Cipher says that the internals of the H22 are nikasil coated, it simply makes sense.

Also if piston skirts never touch the cylinder walls then do me a favor. Look up the definiton of piston slap.

[koolkoreanked]

I sure hope these pistons work as I just ordered a set of their 11.5:1 as I dont want to sleeve this motor.

[4genaccordfreak]

AFAIK, Nikasil (nickel-based silicon) is the ex-factor for aluminum to rub up against almost any material with little to no friction. This may help validate Mahle's no resleeve claim. JE, SRP, or Arias has not offered performance coatings on any of their pistions. If you got them, you had to ship them to a place like the Powder Barons, for a performance coating. And FRM (fiber reinforced metal) was utalized in the H22 to help reduce the weight of the engine. AFAIK, even the pistons are made of FRM. Which is why when Dr. Cipher says that the internals of the H22 are nikasil coated, it simply makes sense.

Also if piston skirts never touch the cylinder walls then do me a favor. Look up the definiton of piston slap.

ok before all you fools start attacking everything i say.. read my post again.. I SAID.. THE PISTON SHOULD never touch the cylinder walls.. for fuck sake... i never said they COULDNT.. or DON'T in other cases.. in a properly functioning motor they will not and should not... get it right!!

[4genaccordfreak]

After all of this, if you STILL want to go ahead and NOT resleeve your H block when using different pistons, you sure as hell better have the right rings (such as the ones you found out about) AND properly prepared/coated pistons. Why do you think the MAHLE gold series have coated skirts? Show me in my post where I said "MAHLE is the ONLY company that makes piston and ring sets that will work in the H series stock sleeves". MAHLE is the only one I knew about. I didn't care to research for any others. I'll never be interested in cutting corners like that. You are in a worse position than even the stock-sleeve 9296 H22A guys because your block is open deck.

i ALSO have never been interested in cutting corners.. ive been doing this shit for almost 6 years... altho B-series motors (which are the more popular choice when you work at a performance shop, especially when we specialize with honda/acura tuning), H series, there was obviously some extra research involved... and no having an open deck wont prove any different since it is not for any forced induction app. or crazy high compression n/a app.. nor will i be revving past 7500..

Anyway, I've spent way more than enough time on this. I could not possibly care less about whether you think you're owned or not. All I know is I would absolutely hate to be in your shoes knowledge-wise. I will gladly shell out the ~$1k to ensure I have bulletproof sleeves, and to be able to use a mainstream, proven piston/ring set. What you want to do is NOT the same as sticking forged pistons in a stock F22 block.

Anyone else who knows their shit will tell you the same thing...if you're gonna spend the time and money to build a motor, do it right the first time.

you'd hate to be in my shoes knowledge-wise...is thats a nice way of telling me you think you know more than i do, because you are so convinced that you PWNED ME with this retarded little session of slight missinformation/confusion.. which required alittle research to clear up..?? wtf.. and trust me.. if i had the 2000$ CDN to put Darton M.I.D sleeves in my motor i would.. but with some more piston/ring-set research for my TEMPORARY setup... im not too worried about the PERFECT combo... (and if i have to end up going with MAHLE... then i will.. plain and simple) and trust me.. ive built quite a few motors in my time.. i know what kind of time and $$$ are required.. although doing it right the first time doesnt always NEED to be an option.. especially on a temp. setup..for my own car... (a customers car.. is obviously a different consideration)

and trust me.. i KNOW my shit.. but even whether you are in this for 5-6 years.. or 25-26 years.. there are always new things you need to freshin' up on.. or do some research about..

[Dirty Harry]

ok before all you fools start attacking everything i say.. read my post again.. I SAID.. THE PISTON SHOULD never touch the cylinder walls.. for fuck sake... i never said they COULDNT.. or DON'T in other cases.. in a properly functioning motor they will not and should not... get it right!!

LOL! You just don't quit do you? The above statement is utterly and completely WRONG. You claim 5-6 years experience in engine building and you don't know THAT? Shit... If only your customers knew...


Another cha-ching for persistent dumbassery

P.S. Another rule GOOD builders know...If you have to defend your setup and justify going the cheaper route (especially by calling it temporary) then something is definitely wrong.