Pierce Motorsports strut bar group buy!

[Lucien]

Just skimming through the thread and seen this statement and I had to say something. This statement is very accurate and spot on. Cannot be said any better or any simpler. As far as everything else in this thread, I don't even really know what's going on. But continue.

It really is that simple.

It is a cycle of events perpetuated by the very community suffering it's affects.

[deevergote]

This. This is exactly what i'm trying to change. It's hard to change this with little support and a smaller wallet.

That statement wasn't necessarily intended to define the CB7tuner scene in a negative way... but rather, to explain why we're not eager to jump into something unknown and unproven with unbridled enthusiasm. We've been burned before, and we can't afford to be burned again.

Work with Jim. Get something CB7-specific made. Show it to us, in detail. With a product to show that is specifically intended for these cars, far greater enthusiasm will likely result. Until now, all anyone sees is talk... and talk is cheap. Until, of course, you start asking them for their money!


I appreciate that you're not "taking your ball and going home". Honestly, my statement last night was an attempt to push you in one direction or the other. I'm glad you didn't choose that direction. I have a bit more faith in the whole ordeal now than I did 24 hours ago.

How about this... delete this thread. Get something made for your car, as you're doing that anyway. Once you have detailed pictures of just one prototype product, remake this thread. If I am pleased with what I see in the pictures, you will have my full support, and I will instruct the staff to give the same.

[Lucien]

That statement wasn't necessarily intended to define the CB7tuner scene in a negative way... but rather, to explain why we're not eager to jump into something unknown and unproven with unbridled enthusiasm. We've been burned before, and we can't afford to be burned again.

Work with Jim. Get something CB7-specific made. Show it to us, in detail. With a product to show that is specifically intended for these cars, far greater enthusiasm will likely result. Until now, all anyone sees is talk... and talk is cheap. Until, of course, you start asking them for their money!


I appreciate that you're not "taking your ball and going home". Honestly, my statement last night was an attempt to push you in one direction or the other. I'm glad you didn't choose that direction. I have a bit more faith in the whole ordeal now than I did 24 hours ago.

How about this... delete this thread. Get something made for your car, as you're doing that anyway. Once you have detailed pictures of just one prototype product, remake this thread. If I am pleased with what I see in the pictures, you will have my full support, and I will instruct the staff to give the same.

I didn't view it as a necessarily negative notion, just that it's a self defeating reality and outlook. The safest means to avoiding something is abstinence and the community is actively abstaining from pursuing parts development. We're stuck and it wont get any better if things remain this way.

I know you weren't really talking shit in your post and i didn't take it personally, so no worries. I had a plan set from the moment i bought another cb and i intend to see it through.

Did you see the (accidentally huge)pics i posted of my trunk brace? I got one or two people saying it was nice work and they're interested and everyone else just nitpicked and commented on how unfinished it looked. How unfinished the PROTOTYPE LOOKED. I wanted to punch kittens. Maybe once i get the flanges revised and the whole thing painted people will see the worth in it.

At that point, though, why go through the stress of setting up another gb when i already have my shiny new custom part and wont see any benefit?

Ah, who am i kidding? I'll probably find a work around on cost and set it up anyway. I love these cars and some of their owners too much not to.

edit- I do want to say that i appreciate your input and help with my questions and thoughts, Mike. As much as i'm bitching about the little i've done so far, you've been around putting in work for a lot longer. Thanks.

edit edit- just noticed my amazingly astute alliteration and alarmingly awesome assertion.

[deevergote]

It's far too early for that much alliteration!

I didn't see the pictures. I likely scrolled right by them without them loading, as my new router is doing something terrible to my internet connection... I'll look for them.


Ultimately, though, people with little money to spend and a whole eBay full of extremely cheap parts (that often look nicer in pictures than any superior custom parts could be... for a fraction of the price.) are going to be wary. I understand wanting to change that mindset. I truly do. I've been trying to advocate quality, original, safe, functional parts for the better part of a decade... and it's been a losing battle. You mentioned the Facebook page, so I'm sure you understand exactly why I couldn't handle that anymore, and had to leave it in the hands of the other moderators that are somehow still slightly more patient!

I'm not defending the mindset, merely stating it as a fact. It's not a good thing, but it is a thing that exists. It is the current state of the CB7tuner world. It's something that, if it can be changed at all, will take time and persistence. At this point, we're pretty much just waiting for these cars to stop being affordable beaters. Only then will we have a (small) population of dedicated enthusiasts, rather than a rather large population of people that paid $500 for their rustbucket, and can't fathom putting more than $500 into modifications (and you can forget about restoration!)


I warned Bisi back in 2007 about the condition of this particular market, and the mindset that goes with it. He ignored my warning. He took the wrong approach. He alienated potential customers, and pissed off existing customers. It didn't work out well for him (and I hope he takes a smarter approach to Porsche!)

[Lucien]

It's far too early for that much alliteration!

I didn't see the pictures. I likely scrolled right by them without them loading, as my new router is doing something terrible to my internet connection... I'll look for them.


Ultimately, though, people with little money to spend and a whole eBay full of extremely cheap parts (that often look nicer in pictures than any superior custom parts could be... for a fraction of the price.) are going to be wary. I understand wanting to change that mindset. I truly do. I've been trying to advocate quality, original, safe, functional parts for the better part of a decade... and it's been a losing battle. You mentioned the Facebook page, so I'm sure you understand exactly why I couldn't handle that anymore, and had to leave it in the hands of the other moderators that are somehow still slightly more patient!

I'm not defending the mindset, merely stating it as a fact. It's not a good thing, but it is a thing that exists. It is the current state of the CB7tuner world. It's something that, if it can be changed at all, will take time and persistence. At this point, we're pretty much just waiting for these cars to stop being affordable beaters. Only then will we have a (small) population of dedicated enthusiasts, rather than a rather large population of people that paid $500 for their rustbucket, and can't fathom putting more than $500 into modifications (and you can forget about restoration!)


I warned Bisi back in 2007 about the condition of this particular market, and the mindset that goes with it. He ignored my warning. He took the wrong approach. He alienated potential customers, and pissed off existing customers. It didn't work out well for him (and I hope he takes a smarter approach to Porsche!)

Yeah, i think we're all pretty much in agreement that this is a problem that really needs some work to improve. I'm gonna keep trying.

Speaking on Bisi, after all the fallout, why is his company still a presence here with a banner and all?

[deevergote]

Really just because I haven't figured out how to effectively remove the banner without causing other issues. The same goes for TASauto, who violated our agreement many years ago. As for Bisi's member shop... I have no good reason for leaving that up. I suppose part of me is hoping he'll return to comment on the thread about the poorly-made camshaft (which was posted months before Bisi's last login date.)

Honestly, ESP was the only company that never outright screwed this site or our members. Their wait times were brutal at times, and the way they sent refunds and cancelled orders wasn't exactly the best... but I still consider them to be a quality company that has retained my respect.
Pandemic Hosting, of course, is another... though not automotive. This site has had a number of issues where the guys from Pandemic came through and fixed it (at least one of those issues being of my own doing!)


It would be nice to add Pierce to the list of quality manufacturers we are associated with, but we absolutely need evidence of effective quality parts and professional representation here on the site.
Perhaps I was a bit hasty in saying your dealings with the members here was unprofessional. I based that mainly on a few posts that I saw just before replying (and it didn't help that I had just come in from discovering a major brake leak on my Cadillac... put me in one hell of a sour mood!) Still, your situation in this deal is a bad one. You're taking all the flak for initiating the group buy, defending a company you don't even work for, and basically just working as the go-between... I understand that it's frustrating.

[Turbo617]

I'm essentially repeating what Deev said, but I'll speak of it from my own words.

I'm a very skeptical buyer. I do weeks of research. i do weeks of comparing. and still i will hesitate in buying. Ontop of barely ever having money, I'm not to sure on anything different/aftermarket.

When the FFC group buy was announced, i was skeptical. But seeing as Daniel is a good guy, love his CB. and I always follow his build, he practically staked his good reputation on it. Then the kicker, I'm guessing an employee, Joe craft; was responding to personal concerns! I inboxed him, he responded professionally.

I continued tagging those two when it came to people buying different Lower control arms, i noticed how they both responded. that definetly sealed the deal for me.

as for Pierce Motorsports, maybe if he took the time to get to know us. personally see what we want, and maybe a few builds i watch that have the product, and read their reviews, i may consider it.

in the meantime, looks like you are at the forefront lucien. you may have to pay more, but you're essentially the beta tester representing us for Pierce Motorsports. I'll watch your MR too!

[deevergote]

I'll have to agree with your assessment of the way the FFC group buy was handled. Daniel approached me regarding the group buy post on Facebook (after he had his post deleted once), and we discussed it. I gave him permission to post, and he continued to post about it actively. Joe was always present as well, and both not only represented the product professionally, but they continued to be a part of the community. People treat FFC as "one of us" now, and their actions are largely responsible for it.
The group buy went smoothly, and the product was represented accurately. Any time a question arose regarding the parts, Joe was always very quick to respond.

Granted, that was regarding a single part. One that probably required little more than a few adjustments to a CAD program for CNC machining of the part. Clearly the part was outsourced. In the case of Pierce, the parts would be assembled in-house, and they would require far more work than simple lower control arms.

It is true that had we gotten a chance to get to know Jim, things may have gone better. Lucien, as I mentioned previously, we barely know YOU, let alone the guy you're representing. You agreed to be the representative on here, which is good... but Jim's lack of interest in interacting with this prospective market just keeps him in the dark. To us, he's just a faceless nobody. Personal interaction builds loyalty. Or more accurately, PROFESSIONAL personal interaction builds loyalty (Bisi's less-than-professional interaction, both his own and that of his representatives, certainly did not work in his company's favor!)
It really would be nice to see Jim on here. I may even consider bumping him up a few posts to access the "big boy" section if he's actually interested in pursuing this market.

[Lucien]

Really just because I haven't figured out how to effectively remove the banner without causing other issues. The same goes for TASauto, who violated our agreement many years ago. As for Bisi's member shop... I have no good reason for leaving that up. I suppose part of me is hoping he'll return to comment on the thread about the poorly-made camshaft (which was posted months before Bisi's last login date.)

Honestly, ESP was the only company that never outright screwed this site or our members. Their wait times were brutal at times, and the way they sent refunds and cancelled orders wasn't exactly the best... but I still consider them to be a quality company that has retained my respect.
Pandemic Hosting, of course, is another... though not automotive. This site has had a number of issues where the guys from Pandemic came through and fixed it (at least one of those issues being of my own doing!)


It would be nice to add Pierce to the list of quality manufacturers we are associated with, but we absolutely need evidence of effective quality parts and professional representation here on the site.
Perhaps I was a bit hasty in saying your dealings with the members here was unprofessional. I based that mainly on a few posts that I saw just before replying (and it didn't help that I had just come in from discovering a major brake leak on my Cadillac... put me in one hell of a sour mood!) Still, your situation in this deal is a bad one. You're taking all the flak for initiating the group buy, defending a company you don't even work for, and basically just working as the go-between... I understand that it's frustrating.

Ah, ok. I understand now about Bisi. Is Tasauto still around? I haven't gone to their site in a long time.

And yeah, i think i could've put myself in a better position had I gone about the order of things differently. I'm gonna think on it while i continue to get parts made, so if i setup another gb it's a much smoother process. I do plan on having Pierce establish a presence here and in the community with their parts and input. Just gonna take time.

How are replacement parts prices for your cts-v? I imagine they're comparable to Audi or Beemer parts?

[Lucien]

I'm essentially repeating what Deev said, but I'll speak of it from my own words.

I'm a very skeptical buyer. I do weeks of research. i do weeks of comparing. and still i will hesitate in buying. Ontop of barely ever having money, I'm not to sure on anything different/aftermarket.

When the FFC group buy was announced, i was skeptical. But seeing as Daniel is a good guy, love his CB. and I always follow his build, he practically staked his good reputation on it. Then the kicker, I'm guessing an employee, Joe craft; was responding to personal concerns! I inboxed him, he responded professionally.

I continued tagging those two when it came to people buying different Lower control arms, i noticed how they both responded. that definetly sealed the deal for me.

as for Pierce Motorsports, maybe if he took the time to get to know us. personally see what we want, and maybe a few builds i watch that have the product, and read their reviews, i may consider it.

in the meantime, looks like you are at the forefront lucien. you may have to pay more, but you're essentially the beta tester representing us for Pierce Motorsports. I'll watch your MR too!

Man, i still need to make a MRT.

I see what you're saying and agree. Notoriety counts for a lot in the parts game and i still need to build mine up by posting regularly about my progress and the quality of parts i use in my build. It's just kind of a catch-22. I started the gb because i kept reading over and over how badly people needed specific parts to move forward with their builds, so i jumped headfirst into finding a quality shop to develop them for us. I didn't stop to take into account that the community has been screwed over in the past by vendors and that that would definitely effect their outlook on new parts from an unfamiliar source.

That said, i am super happy with Pierce's work so far. It's truly top notch and they're great guys who really know their shit. I'm excited to work with them in developing new parts and i hope, in the future, the whole community can benefit from this. I know at this price point there's still gonna be lots of ebay warriors complaining that they're pricey, but i also know the people willing to invest in these parts will love them for their quality and effectiveness.

[Lucien]

I'll have to agree with your assessment of the way the FFC group buy was handled. Daniel approached me regarding the group buy post on Facebook (after he had his post deleted once), and we discussed it. I gave him permission to post, and he continued to post about it actively. Joe was always present as well, and both not only represented the product professionally, but they continued to be a part of the community. People treat FFC as "one of us" now, and their actions are largely responsible for it.
The group buy went smoothly, and the product was represented accurately. Any time a question arose regarding the parts, Joe was always very quick to respond.

Granted, that was regarding a single part. One that probably required little more than a few adjustments to a CAD program for CNC machining of the part. Clearly the part was outsourced. In the case of Pierce, the parts would be assembled in-house, and they would require far more work than simple lower control arms.

It is true that had we gotten a chance to get to know Jim, things may have gone better. Lucien, as I mentioned previously, we barely know YOU, let alone the guy you're representing. You agreed to be the representative on here, which is good... but Jim's lack of interest in interacting with this prospective market just keeps him in the dark. To us, he's just a faceless nobody. Personal interaction builds loyalty. Or more accurately, PROFESSIONAL personal interaction builds loyalty (Bisi's less-than-professional interaction, both his own and that of his representatives, certainly did not work in his company's favor!)
It really would be nice to see Jim on here. I may even consider bumping him up a few posts to access the "big boy" section if he's actually interested in pursuing this market.

Didn't FFC start from a couple cb members? If they didn't and came into our market afterwards, that is hugely impressive. They really are regarded as one of us and people love them. I'll pick their brains and learn from their success to help improve my efforts.

You've got a good point with the lower control arms. Great quality pieces that are well engineered but outsourced for production to help with workload and cost. It's more complicated for Pierce because they'll be designing, prototyping, assembling, painting and shipping all in-house. It's really impressive to me especially since they're a 3 man operation that stays constantly busy building serious track cars. This isn't criticism of FFC. It's an acknowledgement that i should've given better consideration to all the elements involved in the process of parts production, marketing and distribution.

I expressed to Jim the importance of registering and posting here and he intends to, but has been very busy with the aforementioned track cars and doesn't spend much time on the computer. I appreciate your willingness to get him out of the beginner's post limit purgatory and will encourage him to hurry up and get on here so he can begin establishing a presence.

[sonikaccord]

Hey, sorry to go off topic but did that RSX C-pillar bar fit?

[Lucien]

Hey, sorry to go off topic but did that RSX C-pillar bar fit?

Yep, the bar fits. I haven't had anything made with it yet, though, because i can't run it due to having kids in the back seats. It's low priority but i'm working on it.