Pierce Motorsports strut bar group buy!

[Lucien]

I am under the impression that the wagon is slightly wider between the rear strut towers, early next week I'll see if I can get some measurements of both.

Yes, please let me know the measurements. It would be much appreciated.

[excalibur02]

I would be interested in the c pillar bar. I would rather have a solid bar then the adjustable one I have from ebay.

[Lucien]

I'm actually starting to catch flack and derision for trying to get the Pierce traction bar made.

[sonikaccord]

For what? A traction bar is a traction bar. No need for anyone to get salty over it.

[Lucien]

For what? A traction bar is a traction bar. No need for anyone to get salty over it.

Loyalty towards ESP, it seems.

[deevergote]

Asking for an ESP bar to copy is probably what generated the bad vibes around that one... Making a competing product is all well and good, but copying the design of the competition is pretty shady. To be quite honest, I stopped following the updates about this group buy once I read that. I contemplated forbidding it to continue on my forum, in fact. That's not how we do things around here. That's not something I want my forum associated with. If Pierce wants to conduct honorable business here, I welcome it... but copying existing products made by a company that has been very good to us for many years isn't something I condone.

ESP is currently out of the picture, but they may return. If they decide to close their doors for good, and never reopen, I will wholeheartedly encourage people to make quality copies of the products that they are no longer around to sell. Until then, however, I don't support any company that is so eager to blatantly rip off another company's design.

[Lucien]

Asking for an ESP bar to copy is probably what generated the bad vibes around that one... Making a competing product is all well and good, but copying the design of the competition is pretty shady. To be quite honest, I stopped following the updates about this group buy once I read that. I contemplated forbidding it to continue on my forum, in fact. That's not how we do things around here. That's not something I want my forum associated with. If Pierce wants to conduct honorable business here, I welcome it... but copying existing products made by a company that has been very good to us for many years isn't something I condone.

ESP is currently out of the picture, but they may return. If they decide to close their doors for good, and never reopen, I will wholeheartedly encourage people to make quality copies of the products that they are no longer around to sell. Until then, however, I don't support any company that is so eager to blatantly rip off another company's design.

Nothing against you, Mike, but i really wish i'd known this earlier.

Jim and I NEVER intended to rip off ESP's traction bar design. What we intended to do was use their bar as a base template to see where improvements could be made; in materials, pickup points, hardware and clearance. I don't see this being any different than standard aftermarket practice, where a company looking to get into a certain scene samples what is currently available and attempts to offer a different/improved, but similar product that people would like to have.

These traction bars would of course be very similar in shape and pickup points. It's a traction bar. They're all going to be similar. I wanted to make available to the community something we could confer on, build on, improve, so that we could have the most effective, perfectly fitted traction bar possible.

If we had wanted to copy ESP's design, i could've done that long ago, for much cheaper than this process of getting a new part made. I genuinely hope ESP comes back, but i understand their stepping down when the general attitude of this customer base is wantwantwant without wanting to paypaypay and the seemingly high demand being largely illusory.

I'm not going to pursue this group buy any longer. Sorry to the people that were genuinely interested. It's simply not worth my time trying to get these parts made while also having to wade through vitriol and defend my efforts to those too lazy or inept to do it themselves.

Shit's pretty disappointing. I helped prototype and initiate production of parts and participated in group buys for my mazda 3 without any of the headache i've experienced with this situation.

On the upside, i guess, i'm gonna have some pretty cool one-off parts on my car.

[deevergote]

As I said, the general attitude changed when you asked for an ESP bar to use for reference. You can see that even I misunderstood that... and looked the other way. Further clarification probably would've avoided this mess. Instead, people got upset... and rightfully so.
Perhaps I should have put a stop to it right there.

Do as you wish. It's a shame not to have the parts for these cars, but if that's the sort of unprofessional attitude we're going to be dealing with, it's better to leave it alone now, rather than discover how things are once money has been paid and products have been installed.

[Lucien]

As I said, the general attitude changed when you asked for an ESP bar to use for reference. You can see that even I misunderstood that... and looked the other way. Further clarification probably would've avoided this mess. Instead, people got upset... and rightfully so.
Perhaps I should have put a stop to it right there.

Do as you wish. It's a shame not to have the parts for these cars, but if that's the sort of unprofessional attitude we're going to be dealing with, it's better to leave it alone now, rather than discover how things are once money has been paid and products have been installed.

I'm still not understanding how this is unprofessional.

I approached Pierce Motorsports with the intention of having them make us parts that are a step above anything currently offered. The kind of parts other makes and models have had available for decades, that cb owners have always wished for and wanted.

If i were to have started from scratch and posted Pierce's offering, i would have assumed all the prototyping, parts and labor cost. I would have seen absolutely no benefit for my effort, time and money. And, given the way this gb has gone even before i mentioned using an ESP bar as a template, i would have still been met with consternation and reticence since ESP had the idea first and people have set their loyalties.

I wonder how things would have gone if i had intended to have built a header? Garnered interest, set aside time for fitment testing, ponied up the money for a prototype and offered a gb? What if i started the process by taking a Megan header for a measurement and clearance reference source? What if my end product gave double the gains of the Megan header, sounded and fit better and was available around the same cost? I'm guessing people would jump all over it, despite being the same situation, because they don't hold Megan in such a high regard as ESP and they want a mid priced header that performs like a custom job.

And i did try to clear up any confusion, doubt or skepticism as soon as it was brought to my attention. It hasn't helped.

When i first went to Jim, it was for custom exhaust work. When i asked him about possibly making parts for us, he knew better, as he is very involved with and aware of the aftermarket support for various makes/models, including ours. When i told him how badly the community has wanted high quality cb specific parts and that i was willing to setup and follow through with the group buy, he changed his mind. He said it was because he knows what it's like to love a platform with little to no support and how hard it is to find a shop willing to take time away from major projects to prototype parts for a generally unloved car that will turn mediocre profits.

We'll continue to depend on the few decent brands we have backing us with their limited offerings and cheap ebay shit will continue to gain popularity as long as this is the way things go. The only shop i know of actively developing hard parts specifically for our cars is FFC and they're in it because they have a background with our chassis.

What i've learned from this experience is that when i work to develop another part, it will be on my own, from scratch and i'll sell them at full price to the people whom i'd rather give a break.

[deevergote]

It is unprofessional in your attitude toward the people that doubted and/or misunderstood.

You are representing an unknown company. People are going to be cautious. CB7tuners don't have a lot of money to spend. So far, we've dealt with 2 companies claiming to make custom parts that outright lied and stole money (FushigiRES and a welder/fabricator who's name I cannot recall.) We dealt with ESP taking 3-6 months to complete a part, and recently refunded money after holding it for months. We dealt with Bisimoto, making "high end" parts that turned out to be total garbage, and then insulting us for being to stupid to appreciate the genius behind them.
As a whole, we are poor, wary, and frustrated. We are a community that is left with low-quality junk, crappy reproductions, and mid-grade parts with pricetags that aren't justified by the performance granted.

So yes, when you come on here asking people for their hard earned money to fund unproven parts from an unknown company, OF COURSE people are going to be skeptical! You've been around since 2008, but you are a relatively unknown member here. Therefore, your endorsement doesn't mean quite as much as it would had you been a well known member. At least then the members here would've felt some degree of trust in your judgement.
When you ask "can someone with an ESP traction bar come by so we can take measurements?" LOTS of red flags go up. That's like calling your girlfriend fat, and then trying to backpedal. You can't undo that. Not with any degree of explanation. That did damage. Considerable damage. The fallout from which you handled very poorly.

The stock front crossmember is the same measurements, and essentially the same design as any traction bar on the market. The only difference being the fact that a traction bar eliminates the rubber radius rod bushings in favor of solid connections. That's it. Any company that is unable to design a traction bar using the stock crossmember as a reference makes me extremely wary.

If you want to continue pursuing this, feel free to do so... but if you do, please DO NOT so much as hint at any other products being copied, measured, or otherwise serving as any sort of inspiration. Additionally, please understand that people ARE going to be skeptical. Some might even be downright insulting. People are jaded. They've seen this before, and they've dealt with the primadonna attitude of "fine, if you don't want it, then I don't have to give it to you."

At this point, there are two options: get offended and walk away, or step up and prove to the naysayers that something good will come of this.
It is unfortunate that you are simply acting as a go-between (and I have yet to be contacted by Jim directly regarding any sort of representation otherwise on this site.) I know you are a fellow enthusiast trying to do us a favor, and I appreciate it... but still, things are going in a bad direction thus far.

[Lucien]

It is unprofessional in your attitude toward the people that doubted and/or misunderstood.

You are representing an unknown company. People are going to be cautious. CB7tuners don't have a lot of money to spend. So far, we've dealt with 2 companies claiming to make custom parts that outright lied and stole money (FushigiRES and a welder/fabricator who's name I cannot recall.) We dealt with ESP taking 3-6 months to complete a part, and recently refunded money after holding it for months. We dealt with Bisimoto, making "high end" parts that turned out to be total garbage, and then insulting us for being to stupid to appreciate the genius behind them.
As a whole, we are poor, wary, and frustrated. We are a community that is left with low-quality junk, crappy reproductions, and mid-grade parts with pricetags that aren't justified by the performance granted.

So yes, when you come on here asking people for their hard earned money to fund unproven parts from an unknown company, OF COURSE people are going to be skeptical! You've been around since 2008, but you are a relatively unknown member here. Therefore, your endorsement doesn't mean quite as much as it would had you been a well known member. At least then the members here would've felt some degree of trust in your judgement.
When you ask "can someone with an ESP traction bar come by so we can take measurements?" LOTS of red flags go up. That's like calling your girlfriend fat, and then trying to backpedal. You can't undo that. Not with any degree of explanation. That did damage. Considerable damage. The fallout from which you handled very poorly.

The stock front crossmember is the same measurements, and essentially the same design as any traction bar on the market. The only difference being the fact that a traction bar eliminates the rubber radius rod bushings in favor of solid connections. That's it. Any company that is unable to design a traction bar using the stock crossmember as a reference makes me extremely wary.

If you want to continue pursuing this, feel free to do so... but if you do, please DO NOT so much as hint at any other products being copied, measured, or otherwise serving as any sort of inspiration. Additionally, please understand that people ARE going to be skeptical. Some might even be downright insulting. People are jaded. They've seen this before, and they've dealt with the primadonna attitude of "fine, if you don't want it, then I don't have to give it to you."

At this point, there are two options: get offended and walk away, or step up and prove to the naysayers that something good will come of this.
It is unfortunate that you are simply acting as a go-between (and I have yet to be contacted by Jim directly regarding any sort of representation otherwise on this site.) I know you are a fellow enthusiast trying to do us a favor, and I appreciate it... but still, things are going in a bad direction thus far.

I've been thinking about the situation and how i handled it. I recognize that, given my lack of notoriety, my enthusiasm for and assurance of the quality of the product was both premature and held little weight. I'll have to go back through my posts, but aside from a very recent response in the traction bar thread which slightly rustled my jimmies, i don't ever recall addressing anyone with an unprofessional attitude. I'm still considering it, though.

I am completely over trying to make a group buy work here, as there is no benefit for the member putting forth effort, aside from admiration. I don't wish to be a parts middleman that pays full price for custom pieces that others want/get for less.

That said, i don't intend to take my ball and go home. I will continue to work with Jim to develop custom bespoke suspension parts for my cb and am in the process of working with a member to get prototyping going on the traction bar, front strut bar and c-pillar bar.

Maybe once people see these parts on my car their minds will change and i'll get that street cred i need for people to trust my judgment. This being poor and downtrodden by the aftermarket is both an individual problem to be handled personally and a community cycle of failure. Need more companies to make parts --> Lack of money/trust for new ventures --> Lack of interest from parts companies --> Need more companies to make parts...

If the only way new parts are considered valid and trustworthy is for an established, reputable company/person to pursue our market and put forth everything needed to get production rolling on the faith that the end product's demand will justify the incurred costs, great new parts are going to be few and far between. I'm not saying to jump at any new idea. Just that our cars are becoming more outdated by the minute in the market's eyes and sometimes you just have to trust and support people pushing to make shit happen.

I intend to make a MRT and will continue to post updates on my progress with Pierce and their parts. If people want them badly enough, we'll see how things go.

[Lucien]

As a whole, we are poor, wary, and frustrated. We are a community that is left with low-quality junk, crappy reproductions, and mid-grade parts with pricetags that aren't justified by the performance granted.

This. This is exactly what i'm trying to change. It's hard to change this with little support and a smaller wallet.

[sonikaccord]

Sorry it didn't work in our favor, but as you can see, the community here is for one very small with only a fraction even interested in these mods. Maybe the FB group would've received more praise and interest. I'm still in for other bars if you decide to get them prototyped and designed.

[Lucien]

Sorry it didn't work in our favor, but as you can see, the community here is for one very small with only a fraction even interested in these mods. Maybe the FB group would've received more praise and interest. I'm still in for other bars if you decide to get them prototyped and designed.

I don't even want to attempt to organize a gb on the clusterfuck that is the fb group.

I'll keep everyone up to date on my progress with Pierce. I do appreciate your interest.

[H311RA151N]

As a whole, we are poor, wary, and frustrated. We are a community that is left with low-quality junk, crappy reproductions, and mid-grade parts with pricetags that aren't justified by the performance granted.

Just skimming through the thread and seen this statement and I had to say something. This statement is very accurate and spot on. Cannot be said any better or any simpler. As far as everything else in this thread, I don't even really know what's going on. But continue.