F22b1 not so bad after all?

[toycar]

So long story short of it is that I have been working on an F22b1 cylinder head fairly extensively. Come to find out, the f22a series head does NOT outflow the f22b1 until you surpass the .5 lift mark on your cam profile. Meaning, until you are balls deep into a build-the f22b1 is actually a better option. No arguing that the f22a carries a better valve angle and superior port design for top end performance.

Thing is, it isn't relevant until you pass the .5 lift point on your cam profile. Until that mark, the f22b1 outflows the f22a. The flowbench numbers don't lie. Sure, the overall performance potential is greater on the f22a-but hardly anyone runs a cam that hot that DD's an F22a.

The biggest grype about the b1 is in the intake manifold, which was designed about as thoughtfully as a shoe box.




Just thought it was worth pointing out since so many people discredit the f22b1 as a peformer since the "vtec" is for "Economy" not "performance"

The VTEC is a system, and the cam it powers is designed for economy. The cam can be replaced though, and the VTEC system remains desireable(in my eyes).

I have always thought the option of having more than one cam profile was interesting to me, intake side only or not. Especially when considering a turbo daily driver. With some head work and obviously some cam work, the f22b1 cylinder head can flow over 300cfm with very normal amounts of work when already considering a typical "port and polish" on the head.


There is a lot of information floating around on H-tech about the b1 as well. Surely isn't an h22, but it is a very strong performing engine that gets constantly smashed on the forum as being a "lesser" option or downgrade to the f22a.

Well, a bisi lvl 2 cam doesn't even hit a .5 lift so unless you are going balls deep into something serious, the f22b1 should be considered a pretty valid engine to build. Most builds on the forum NEVER run a cam hot enough to actually benefit from the superior port design and valve angle.

[LadyG]

I agree with this. I have what is essentially a b2 (non vtec) with an a6 cam (Its the f22b6 oddessy engine) and it is a fabulous swap.
If I had tuned it for power- it would give my BF's stock H22 teg a run for its money.
The "b" series f22's get a bad rap with these guys who want to go fast- but for DD, they kick ass.
Eventually, when the availability of the H22 is scarce, I think we will see more swaps.
I have all the basic bolt-ons on mine, but a conservative tune, and I am so happy with it. (also, these only came attached to an AT, and my a1 MT bolted right up, and seems to have really "unleashed the beast", lol) I am actually going to re-tune soon to get a little better throttle response- and some actual numbers- but I think I'm going to see 160 hp or better.

[Alex13mod]

The money you spend on a F22B1 you can do a complete H22A or H23A swap and have more gains and power.

[toycar]

The money you spend on a F22B1 you can do a complete H22A or H23A swap and have more gains and power.

yes and no.


I pulled the f22b1 I am working on for $100, and there are 15+ others at the junkyard on cars that are totaled from damage.

Meaning the drivetrains are probably solid-would need inspecting.


My donor, 131k mile having $100 engine had 165-170 psi across all cylinders and didn't leak a drop of oil.

Crank journal didn't even need polishing.

And you can source a good, running f22b1 from a salvage yard for $350-$450 vs H22 money. Its also an easier swap, since you don't have to deal with the DOHC mount issue. No biggy, just pointing out. It has its perks too.



Just saying, its no H22 but it should be considered an option when deciding which route to go. People pick the f22a for a reason. They should know that the theory behind that choice may be a bit flawed.

[deevergote]

The F22A head doesn't outflow the F22B1 head until the F22A head has been modified. The port design of the F22A is very good, whereas the port design of the F22B1 is rather cramped to accommodate the VTEC system, as well as promote efficiency. The F22B1's valve angles are also not as suited to performance as the F22A's are.
It doesn't mean it's a crap cylinder head, or that it can't be made to perform... but pushed to the limit, the F22A is the better choice. Anyone looking to do a serious build would be unwise to choose the F22B1 over the F22A, unless they specifically wanted to prove a point.

The F22B1's VTEC system is on the intake valves only, which makes it far less useful for performance when compared to a DOHC system that offers variable valve control on both intake and exhaust valves. Essentially, the F22B1's VTEC system isn't all that much different from the F22A6's IAB system.


It's not total crap... and I admit to being guilty of shunning it pretty heavily myself in the past. Mainly to stir up enthusiasm for the F22A, which until Bisi came along was considered a boat anchor (or at least a "budget turbo engine")
With the emergence of Bisimoto, I (and a few others) saw it as a good time to start singing the praises of Bisi's preferred engine, to ensure the largest market possible for a new company that was producing parts for an otherwise ignored platform. (and despite any disagreements I've had with Bisi in recent times, I still fully support his company in their endeavors to bring us high-performance parts that you really can't find anywhere else for this ancient engine!)

[LadyG]

yes and no.


I pulled the f22b1 I am working on for $100, and there are 15+ others at the junkyard on cars that are totaled from damage.

Meaning the drivetrains are probably solid-would need inspecting.


My donor, 131k mile having $100 engine had 165-170 psi across all cylinders and didn't leak a drop of oil.

Crank journal didn't even need polishing.

And you can source a good, running f22b1 from a salvage yard for $350-$450 vs H22 money. Its also an easier swap, since you don't have to deal with the DOHC mount issue. No biggy, just pointing out. It has its perks too.


Just saying, its no H22 but it should be considered an option when deciding which route to go. People pick the f22a for a reason. They should know that the theory behind that choice may be a bit flawed.

That is true. My short block was $250. My BF's H22 (while he got his in trade) retails for 750-1200.

[deevergote]

F22B1s are cheap. F22As are cheap. H22As aren't... not if they're in good condition. I would still expect to pay $1000 or more for a reliable H22A from a likewise reliable source.

[LadyG]

The F22A head doesn't outflow the F22B1 head until the F22A head has been modified. The port design of the F22A is very good, whereas the port design of the F22B1 is rather cramped to accommodate the VTEC system, as well as promote efficiency. The F22B1's valve angles are also not as suited to performance as the F22A's are.
It doesn't mean it's a crap cylinder head, or that it can't be made to perform... but pushed to the limit, the F22A is the better choice. Anyone looking to do a serious build would be unwise to choose the F22B1 over the F22A, unless they specifically wanted to prove a point.

The F22B1's VTEC system is on the intake valves only, which makes it far less useful for performance when compared to a DOHC system that offers variable valve control on both intake and exhaust valves. Essentially, the F22B1's VTEC system isn't all that much different from the F22A6's IAB system.


It's not total crap... and I admit to being guilty of shunning it pretty heavily myself in the past. Mainly to stir up enthusiasm for the F22A, which until Bisi came along was considered a boat anchor (or at least a "budget turbo engine")
With the emergence of Bisimoto, I (and a few others) saw it as a good time to start singing the praises of Bisi's preferred engine, to ensure the largest market possible for a new company that was producing parts for an otherwise ignored platform. (and despite any disagreements I've had with Bisi in recent times, I still fully support his company in their endeavors to bring us high-performance parts that you really can't find anywhere else for this ancient engine!)

I guess then we should start to promote some of the more eccentric engines.
B/c I have no vtec, no I iab's and one of the better cams and there is maybe 3 topics on the whole forum about it... and the a5 is another pretty good engine that has NO INFO on it.
My knowledge of my engine was dug out of the Oddy forums, Jarrett's superior searching skills, and part number and component comparisons.
The Euro engines are even less well covered (in english anyways).

[LadyG]

I was looking at a1 crate motors when I blew mine- 1000 was average from a retailer.
I wasn't going to buy "someone elses" engine, unless it was the "right someone" and that happened. BUT otherwise, I was going with Hmotors, or someone else as reputable.
And pretty much every long block was a minimum of 800.
SUX ASS.

[toycar]

1.)The F22A head doesn't outflow the F22B1 head until the F22A head has been modified.


2.)The F22B1's VTEC system is on the intake valves only, which makes it far less useful for performance when compared to a DOHC system that offers variable valve control on both intake and exhaust valves. Essentially, the F22B1's VTEC system isn't all that much different from the F22A6's IAB system.


It's not total crap...

Two things I wanted to comment on.


1.) I bet out of all the builds on the forum, there are only 2-3 that are pushing a cam profile farther than a .5 lift-which was why I mentioned this. Major power can be made and still fall well short of the .5 lift benchmark for performance benefits on the f22a. Duration is generally increased over lift on the cam(s) offered for the f22a. Bisi gets pretty aggressive with the lift options he has, and only 1 is greater than .5 and the work it takes to make that run puts headwork costs over $1 grand alone.

2.) While I see your point in the current state of performance on the SOHC VTEC, the VTEC engagement can be used with a much more aggressive cam profile to change the "economy" stigma of the f22b1 to "performance" no problemo.

The cam is the issue with the "economy" approach on the f22b1, not the vtec engagement. You could run a much hotter cam profile during vtec engagement, set vtec engagement points around boost timing and build yourself a very street friendly turbo DD that is also putting down some nice power under boost all while purring like a kitten at idle.

The VTEC system is valueable I guess is what I am saying. The cam that comes with it is a POS, but the systems function I think will be a pretty nice feature for a DD car that makes considerable power.

[GhostAccord]

There is a reason that I went from a B2 (same port geometry as B1) to a PT3.... And the flow difference is well before .5" of lift. Then again my ports have been modified and I am running larger valves with modified combustion chambers. Those are the reason that I went with the PT3. It has lots of room to move, where as the B1/B2 heads are restricted by the valve angles and the fact that the exhaust ports are liquid cooled.

The B1 is great for a DD with a few bolt-ons, an F23 IM swap or boosted application. However to keep it N/A and make reliable power your cheaper option would still be the PT3 for SOHC.

[Alex13mod]

I got my mint H23A for 850 complete/no trans fresh from JDM Engine Depot here in NJ and with C & M Advanced tuning reputation the engine was checked and verified and passed compression as-well. My motor is running fine only thing I'm using the F22 Manual Transmission. I've had a F20B SOHC VTEC and this upgrade is a big difference and actually getting better gas mileage :-).

[deevergote]

Two things I wanted to comment on.


1.) I bet out of all the builds on the forum, there are only 2-3 that are pushing a cam profile farther than a .5 lift-which was why I mentioned this. Major power can be made and still fall well short of the .5 lift benchmark for performance benefits on the f22a. Duration is generally increased over lift on the cam(s) offered for the f22a. Bisi gets pretty aggressive with the lift options he has, and only 1 is greater than .5 and the work it takes to make that run puts headwork costs over $1 grand alone.

2.) While I see your point in the current state of performance on the SOHC VTEC, the VTEC engagement can be used with a much more aggressive cam profile to change the "economy" stigma of the f22b1 to "performance" no problemo.

The cam is the issue with the "economy" approach on the f22b1, not the vtec engagement. You could run a much hotter cam profile during vtec engagement, set vtec engagement points around boost timing and build yourself a very street friendly turbo DD that is also putting down some nice power under boost all while purring like a kitten at idle.

The VTEC system is valueable I guess is what I am saying. The cam that comes with it is a POS, but the systems function I think will be a pretty nice feature for a DD car that makes considerable power.

That is true about the cam profile. That's what I mean by serious builds. If you want 250whp from an N/A F22, you could do it with either the F22A or F22B1. If you want 300+whp, then it might be a bit harder with the F22B1.

The exhaust ports are my concern. The F22A's port design is superior to the F22B1. Additionally, the F22B1's VTEC system allows for increased intake flow... but the exhaust valves are static... and the port design is cramped. That will be a bottleneck in any serious build. Eventually, you'll be sucking in far more than you can blow out. OR, you'll have to increase the exhaust valve lift by so much that it'll be detrimental in non-VTEC operation.

The F22B1 is a very good choice for turbo, though. Granted, forged internals in an otherwise bone-stock F22B1 would likely be able to produce enough power with a proper turbo system to be near the limits of a street-driven FWD car.

['93CB7Ex]

I got my h22a4 for 350...

[LadyG]

^ Glad you got that hookup, yo.