Any Other Forged Piston Options?

[deevergote]

You're going to want to pull the engine to install everything anyway. Taking it to a machine shop for a quick refresh won't be much more difficult, or much more expensive. As long as you bring the shop a bare block, I don't imagine they'd charge a ton for it. Honestly, the best thing to do is tear the engine own, bring the bare block to the machine shop, and have them do their thing before you order pistons. Be absolutely certain that you can order pistons that will fit. You don't want to buy 85mm pistons and then find that the machine shop needs to do a .5mm overbore to make the cylinders perfectly round. Because then you'll be stuck with pistons that are too small... and you'll be selling them on eBay for 75% of what you paid for them.

This is one reason I always suggest picking up a spare engine for a turbo build. Do it slowly and carefully, without any worry of downtime. An F22A is fairly cheap. Hell, I sold my old F22A1 with 166k on it, transmission and all, for $50 back in 2003! Granted, I got taken... but still, deals exist. Find one with a snapped timing belt, and you'll get it super cheap.

[GTRON]

How are you going to know if they're truly round? Your eyes won't tell you. You need a dial bore indicator to measure at three different points at three different elevations through the bore to take an average.

Not to mention, the thermal expansion properties of a forged piston are slightly different than your 30 year-old OEM cast piston. Just popping that thing in the bore, then subjecting it to the higher heat of a turbocharged application is not wise. I'm not saying it won't run. It may even run for a few thousand miles. But it's not the correct way of doing things.

What is your reason for not wanting to pull the block? The number of people that will tell you that's an acceptable method for rebuilding an engine for boost is a lot smaller than those who wouldn't.

So if you bore out the block the expansion properties of the block is going to change? I definitely understand what you're saying about the walls possibly being out of round, but I think I'll be willing to take that risk, as a lot of people do it successfully without any issues.
I'd love to do everything textbook right, but taking out the whole block makes it a bigger deal, and boring it out is definitely going to add to the cost.

What's the worst that will happen if the bore is warped/crooked? Would I lose compression?.....

Appreciate it.

[deevergote]

No, the expansion properties of the pistons are different than stock, so you want to ensure you know the exact bore you'll be working with, and get pistons that are proper for your intended use.

The walls are VERY likely to have some issues, especially with a 25 year old open deck block. You will absolutely need to take the block to a machine shop. At the very least, it should be professionally honed, if not bored. Screw this part up, and your expensive new pistons will likely get ruined. If the pistons even fit in an off-round cylinder, you will definitely not have compression, you will probably damage the piston (if the engine runs), and chances are good that you'll put a hole in the block.

[GTRON]

No, the expansion properties of the pistons are different than stock, so you want to ensure you know the exact bore you'll be working with, and get pistons that are proper for your intended use.

The walls are VERY likely to have some issues, especially with a 25 year old open deck block. You will absolutely need to take the block to a machine shop. At the very least, it should be professionally honed, if not bored. Screw this part up, and your expensive new pistons will likely get ruined. If the pistons even fit in an off-round cylinder, you will definitely not have compression, you will probably damage the piston (if the engine runs), and chances are good that you'll put a hole in the block.

Yikes, ok. I'll think about it then.

Reading this thread: http://www.superhonda.com/forum/f9/f...p-turbo-71592/

There is talk about using Wiseco pistons with stock rods! That's exactly what I want to do! Also, the guy doing that is just dropping in 85mm pistons. Sure, putting in forged rods would be cool, but that adds a ton to the total cost and I'm not going to need it running 300-400 horses.
https://www.raceeng.com/p-33714-wise...et-526p85.aspx
Would these work with stock rods?
That's a great price!

[deevergote]

Every aftermarket piston is going to use a floating wrist pin. To use stock rods, you must modify them. It can be done. It introduces a good deal more risk. Chances are you'll probably need a machinist to do the modification for you. I don't actually know the specifics involved in said modification.

That thread is also from 2002, when mainstream import modification was in its infancy. There was a LOT of halfassed experimentation back then. Sure, good stuff came out of it (like the infamous "DSM turbo kit"), but knowledge and aftermarket part availability has grown immensely since then. There are far more parts available for the F22A now than there were 15 years ago, and people on forums know a LOT more.
I'm heading out to the junkyard now, so I just glanced at the thread. I'll take a look at it later if I have time (and if I beat Jarrett to it). I'm pretty confident that there will be a LOT of questionable things being said there, just by its age (and the overall experience of people posting back then.) Just remember, the fact someone has done something doesn't mean its a good idea... and many guys will brag about their build as it's being built and shortly after... but they grow suspiciously silent when things go wrong. Find evidence that this guy's build lasted for longer than 3 months, and it'll give it a bit more credence. Otherwise, it's better to assume his shortcuts were not worthwhile.


I look at it this way... building an engine, even a budget build... is time consuming and fairly expensive. You could do a budget build for $1000 with forged pistons, stock rods, and Ryobi drill "machining"... and it MIGHT work, or it might fail. If it works, great. You got what you wanted on the cheap. If it fails, you just pissed away $1000... because if it fails, all the stuff you just installed will be trashed.
My personal rule is this: if failure is going to cost significantly more than doing it the right way, I'll do it the right way... or not at all.

[GTRON]

Every aftermarket piston is going to use a floating wrist pin. To use stock rods, you must modify them. It can be done. It introduces a good deal more risk. Chances are you'll probably need a machinist to do the modification for you. I don't actually know the specifics involved in said modification.

That thread is also from 2002, when mainstream import modification was in its infancy. There was a LOT of halfassed experimentation back then. Sure, good stuff came out of it (like the infamous "DSM turbo kit"), but knowledge and aftermarket part availability has grown immensely since then. There are far more parts available for the F22A now than there were 15 years ago, and people on forums know a LOT more.
I'm heading out to the junkyard now, so I just glanced at the thread. I'll take a look at it later if I have time (and if I beat Jarrett to it). I'm pretty confident that there will be a LOT of questionable things being said there, just by its age (and the overall experience of people posting back then.) Just remember, the fact someone has done something doesn't mean its a good idea... and many guys will brag about their build as it's being built and shortly after... but they grow suspiciously silent when things go wrong. Find evidence that this guy's build lasted for longer than 3 months, and it'll give it a bit more credence. Otherwise, it's better to assume his shortcuts were not worthwhile.


I look at it this way... building an engine, even a budget build... is time consuming and fairly expensive. You could do a budget build for $1000 with forged pistons, stock rods, and Ryobi drill "machining"... and it MIGHT work, or it might fail. If it works, great. You got what you wanted on the cheap. If it fails, you just pissed away $1000... because if it fails, all the stuff you just installed will be trashed.
My personal rule is this: if failure is going to cost significantly more than doing it the right way, I'll do it the right way... or not at all.

So using stock rods can be done, but it takes modification... Got it..
And I did notice it was an old thread, and I'd like to know how long that actually lasted.

I know you and Jarrett don't recommend doing stock bore, and I really respect both of your opinions, but I think I'm gonna risk it personally. We'll hopefully find out if this build will really last or not on a stock bore.

Say I get those $480 Wiseco pistons, if I decide not to try to modify the stock rods to fit, what rods would you recommend with those pistons?

Thanks so much for the help guys!
(Almost said "dudes", but for deeve's sake I changed it.)

[GhostAccord]

If you are going to opt for aftermarket forged pistons over stock cast pistons. You will have issues with piston to wall clearance. due to the fact that these two pistons have different coefficient of expansion. Cast pistons usually run a closer tolerance as they do not expand as much as their forged counterparts. This is due not only to the manufacturing differences but the makeup of the alloys themselves.

[deevergote]

I'm a dude!

Forged piston expansion generally depends on silicon content. However, pistons intended for turbo use are usually the type that will expand more, so more clearance is needed. I recall talking to an incredibly knowledgeable guy at one of my first meets. He explained the turbo H22 he helped build, and why it sounded like a diesel when it first started up. He said the pistons knocked around a bit until they heated up and expanded. I'm not sure if technology has changed things since then (most of my knowledge is well over a decade old), but in those days, turbo-appropriate pistons needed extra clearance for expansion.


If you do get aftermarket rods (I highly recommend you do so), Eagle rods are the standard for inexpensive, yet decent quality, rods. If you're going to cut corners, you can probably get away with doing so with the rods... but you don't want to cut too many corners (getting some no-name Chinese junk for $50 might be pushing it!)
If you really do go through with putting the new pistons in un-machined stock cylinders, be prepared to lose everything... all your internal parts, and the engine itself. If those cylinders aren't perfectly round, the engine will basically just eat itself. Possibly upon the first startup attempt, before you even get to drive the car. If you're willing to take that risk, and starting from less than zero if the worst happens, then go for it. It's definitely a risk, though. Not one I would ever want to take (and I'm surprisingly willing to take halfassed shortcuts whenever anything but safety is concerned, despite the advice I often give!)

[GTRON]

I'm a dude!

Forged piston expansion generally depends on silicon content. However, pistons intended for turbo use are usually the type that will expand more, so more clearance is needed. I recall talking to an incredibly knowledgeable guy at one of my first meets. He explained the turbo H22 he helped build, and why it sounded like a diesel when it first started up. He said the pistons knocked around a bit until they heated up and expanded. I'm not sure if technology has changed things since then (most of my knowledge is well over a decade old), but in those days, turbo-appropriate pistons needed extra clearance for expansion.


If you do get aftermarket rods (I highly recommend you do so), Eagle rods are the standard for inexpensive, yet decent quality, rods. If you're going to cut corners, you can probably get away with doing so with the rods... but you don't want to cut too many corners (getting some no-name Chinese junk for $50 might be pushing it!)
If you really do go through with putting the new pistons in un-machined stock cylinders, be prepared to lose everything... all your internal parts, and the engine itself. If those cylinders aren't perfectly round, the engine will basically just eat itself. Possibly upon the first startup attempt, before you even get to drive the car. If you're willing to take that risk, and starting from less than zero if the worst happens, then go for it. It's definitely a risk, though. Not one I would ever want to take (and I'm surprisingly willing to take halfassed shortcuts whenever anything but safety is concerned, despite the advice I often give!)

Your username has "Don't call me dude" under it, I just didn't want to risk breaking any rules!

I'm pretty sure I'm gonna take the risk, f22s aren't expensive these days.
Worst case scenario I destroy my new shiny (expensive) forged pistons right?

Are these too risky? Says it has ARP bolts on it, if it's true. It won't really make a difference (power handling wise) if I get aftermarket rods right? The next weak point would be the head?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/HONDA-2-1-2-...3D380643968645

[GTRON]

Rode in a friends 1994 Civic Sedan today, boosted 5 psi on stock internals with ARP head studs (Garrett 50 trim turbo, good tune) it made around 240 WHP on the dyno. It was definitely fun, especially in that light of a car! It's cute, but I think 300-350 is what I'll be wanting in my car, especially with it being 500 pounds heavier.

Looking at power to weight ratio, I'm gonna have to have 350hp to have the same power to weight ratio as him, sheesh.

[Jarrett]

What about this option:

Buy an F23A to use the block. You can get a JDM engine from an importer for around $300. Buy forged rods and pistons, studs and new bearings for it. Have the block bored by a machine shop to the dimensions of the new pistons. All in all, you're spending $1500. Build it up in your spare time and keep it in reserve.

In the meantime, do absolutely nothing to the bottom end of your F22A. Just boost it and drive it. When it breaks, you swap the bottom ends.

[deevergote]

Your username has "Don't call me dude" under it, I just didn't want to risk breaking any rules!

I'm pretty sure I'm gonna take the risk, f22s aren't expensive these days.
Worst case scenario I destroy my new shiny (expensive) forged pistons right?

Are these too risky? Says it has ARP bolts on it, if it's true. It won't really make a difference (power handling wise) if I get aftermarket rods right? The next weak point would be the head?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/HONDA-2-1-2-...3D380643968645

I forgot about that! I need to change that. It's been there for years now, I think.

As Jarrett said, a spare block could make life easier (and reduce the desire to halfass it just to get it done on the cheap...)

I'd say $1500 is VERY optimistic for that, though. The internals alone will cost you about $1200, so a $300 F23 would already put you there. You could sell the head and stuff to recoup much of your costs, but you're still going to be spending money on gaskets, seals, bearings, machine work, etc... It's still a good option, and boosting the stock engine until it blows isn't a bad idea either (as long as you have a second car to get you to work or school as needed... it's a terrible idea if you depend on this car.)
One of the few things about the "boost til it blows" approach is that you get to learn the ins and outs of turbo with minimal expense. You'll almost definitely nuke your engine, but you'll be able to sell or reuse everything that you bolted to the outside of it. If you plan on learning how to tune it yourself, that might not be a bad approach (though I'd practice tuning on a non-turbo F22A first... it's much harder to do damage that way.)

As for those rods, that's definitely a risk... but they might be ok. Rods strength isn't terribly important on a street turbo setup (it matters in crazy builds, but for your goals, you don't need the best. just functional.)
Just remember that if anything inside your engine fails, everything fails. Chances are good that a failed internal component will cause damage to everything else. In the absolute best circumstance, you will still need to remove your engine, tear it down, replace the damaged parts, and reassemble the engine (new bearings and seals will probably be necessary in many cases... machine work may be necessary again as well.) One failed internal part means you're doing 60% of the work again, at best. Possibly 100%. Possibly 100% plus stuff that you didn't have to buy initially (like another block.) Or you just chalk it up to a loss and move on to a different engine altogether, or even a different car.

If this is your only car, and you need it to get to and from work and/or school, then I'd take Jarrett's advice a step further. DO NOT boost your stock engine. Build a second engine on the side. Once it's complete, swap everything over. Save your old engine as a backup in case the turbo build fails catastrophically (just because you did everything right doesn't mean something unexpected can't happen... I've seen engines built properly by experienced builders fail... it happens.) If the turbo engine fails, you can swap your old engine in over a weekend. You'll have little downtime.

[GTRON]

What about this option:

Buy an F23A to use the block. You can get a JDM engine from an importer for around $300. Buy forged rods and pistons, studs and new bearings for it. Have the block bored by a machine shop to the dimensions of the new pistons. All in all, you're spending $1500. Build it up in your spare time and keep it in reserve.

In the meantime, do absolutely nothing to the bottom end of your F22A. Just boost it and drive it. When it breaks, you swap the bottom ends.

I really like the sound of that. Why a F23 though?

I was already kinda thinking of doing two stages, do like 5psi on all stock motor for a bit (with an cheap FMU), then put in internals (swap out blocks etc.), Hondata and get a pro tune.

This is my daily, so that makes everything more interesting.. LOL.

[GTRON]

I forgot about that! I need to change that. It's been there for years now, I think.

As Jarrett said, a spare block could make life easier (and reduce the desire to halfass it just to get it done on the cheap...)

I'd say $1500 is VERY optimistic for that, though. The internals alone will cost you about $1200, so a $300 F23 would already put you there. You could sell the head and stuff to recoup much of your costs, but you're still going to be spending money on gaskets, seals, bearings, machine work, etc... It's still a good option, and boosting the stock engine until it blows isn't a bad idea either (as long as you have a second car to get you to work or school as needed... it's a terrible idea if you depend on this car.)
One of the few things about the "boost til it blows" approach is that you get to learn the ins and outs of turbo with minimal expense. You'll almost definitely nuke your engine, but you'll be able to sell or reuse everything that you bolted to the outside of it. If you plan on learning how to tune it yourself, that might not be a bad approach (though I'd practice tuning on a non-turbo F22A first... it's much harder to do damage that way.)

As for those rods, that's definitely a risk... but they might be ok. Rods strength isn't terribly important on a street turbo setup (it matters in crazy builds, but for your goals, you don't need the best. just functional.)
Just remember that if anything inside your engine fails, everything fails. Chances are good that a failed internal component will cause damage to everything else. In the absolute best circumstance, you will still need to remove your engine, tear it down, replace the damaged parts, and reassemble the engine (new bearings and seals will probably be necessary in many cases... machine work may be necessary again as well.) One failed internal part means you're doing 60% of the work again, at best. Possibly 100%. Possibly 100% plus stuff that you didn't have to buy initially (like another block.) Or you just chalk it up to a loss and move on to a different engine altogether, or even a different car.

If this is your only car, and you need it to get to and from work and/or school, then I'd take Jarrett's advice a step further. DO NOT boost your stock engine. Build a second engine on the side. Once it's complete, swap everything over. Save your old engine as a backup in case the turbo build fails catastrophically (just because you did everything right doesn't mean something unexpected can't happen... I've seen engines built properly by experienced builders fail... it happens.) If the turbo engine fails, you can swap your old engine in over a weekend. You'll have little downtime.

Well Internals won't be $1200 if I'm not getting forged rods, I'll just get those inexpensive ones, It'll be like $750. Any ballpark numbers on what having a f23 block bored out to 86mm will cost though? I know all the little stuff adds up quick... Seems like every project I do on this thing ends up costing double of what I planned. Rear discs for instance, paid $100 for the swap, then I needed upper control arms for $30, then I needed more brake fluid, and now I need $100 Megan Toe arms.

This stuff takes a lot of time, and I'd rather spend a little extra and have stuff bolt right up, and work. And I don't want to have to take stuff apart again, obviously.

Again, I respect your opinion, but I think I'm gonna go against your advice on putting a turbo on stock internals for a couple months. Though it's not recommended, people do 5 psi on stock internals with no issues all the time.

Also, Happy Easter everyone!

[Jarrett]

Here's my cost breakdown with some explanation:

Expect to pay $30-40 per cylinder for boring. This should only d done with pistons in hand. Throw another $20-30 on top for resurfacing the deck. $200 (on the high end of what a small machine shop will charge)

Pistons are around $500-600.

The forged Chinese rods are a controversial topic, but I've seen plenty of reports from people on many different types of car forums that had had great luck with them. I've seen a Honda-Tech post where someone weighed them out and they were all withing 1.5 grams of each other. Not bad considering they come with nice ARP hardware for $250. A little more for even better ARP hardware. Let's say $300.

The engine is $300 if you can buy it in person. Sell whatever you want off of that if it's not the block and rotating assembly itself.

Bearings will run you about $150 if you get ACL, or $200 if you buy them in the exact sizes needed from Honda.

So far we're at $1600 with everything. You can spend $600 more and get Crower F23A rods, or budget about $200 more for balancing with the clutch and pulley.

The reason for the F23A over the F22A is just the ability to buy low-mileage units for cheap. The extra displacement is just a low-end torque bonus.