Good alternative to Hmotorsonline for H22

[toycar]

I think the H23 V-TEC is not used by kids as much before they are pulled, maybe that is where desirability comes in, and price. I was comparing prices when I was searching for my non V-TEC engine on ebay and a lot of postings for the H23 V-TEC came up for my search and they were all around $1200 while the H22 were going for about $2000, so price might be a deciding factor as well.

I could see that arguement being made for the engine, but anyone thinking $2000 is a reasonable price for a used 4 cylinder honda engine is probably happy about paying $1200 for an H23.




I could piece together an H22 for less than a grand, and for another 1200-1500 I could build the entire engine from oil pan to TB with top shelf parts all around(no machine work though).


$2000 for a used run down H22 or $2000 for an H22 ready to make a 10 second pass?



I can't believe people still buy these for full price. Blows me away.

Shit like this pops up all the time around here;

http://omaha.craigslist.org/pts/3909443404.html


I could buy this and an engine block on ebay for less than $500 delivered to my door and still have money for OEM seals/gaskets to get the motor together and STILL keep my budget under a grand.


I don't for the life of me understand why anyone would still buy an engine for 1k or more that NEEDS to be overhauled. At a minimum, for years people have thought that a swap from HMO still needed all new gaskets/refreshing.


So, seriously. Why not just piece together something and go from there?




If putting something together was not an option, I would go f20b + turbo for H22 money.

[XCRN]

I have looked at craigslist and locally there isnt anything appealing to say it lightly. I would go that route but as I stated before I really don't want to completely rebuild one. My local JYs are striped of H22s for now. And I know with 100% certainty I would have to rebuild one from a JY.

Well the OP said he did not want to put a lot of work for rebuilding an engine and something like the craigslist ad would probably involve a lot of rebuilding time. On a side note wish there were more posts like that here, I would jump on that offer myself if I was there.

[The G-Man]

Nah, thats why nobody is racing an h23 and making a name for themselves.


Why?



All that extra stroke = more piston speed. Guys that build these engines for balls out racing know that the piston speed eventually becomes the issue that stops progress. That extra 5mm in stroke makes a difference in piston speed when you are turning at 9-10k rpm's.


You could do the math to see what I am talking about, but piston speed is the limiting factor of the h23. Plus, longer stroke is NOT ideal for forced induction. So, no matter how you slice it, the h22 is a better engine for performance and that is why tuners have flocked to it forever.


I mean, the engine has been around for like 15 years and it never really took off and it never really will. People get all excited like they found a better option than the h22 that doesn't start with the letter K.


Actually, its not a better option and I could quickly explain about a half dozen reasons as to why. Just saying.


Shorter strokes handle better in the turns too.

Why?

Power process happens faster, rpm range is WIDER during the turn and acceleration is more aggressive due to the shorter stroke.


All around, there is plenty of reasons why fan-boys LOVE the H23 vtec engine and NOBODY THAT IS DOING ANYTHING WORTH TALKING ABOUT is running one.

Well I have an H23A and I'm planning on using it in a Honda Challenge class sometime in the next couple years, so I'll see how it does. (No time while in flight school to go and race)

If it throws a rod at some point I will probably replace with H22 but I wanted to put one in the car because back in 2011 when I got it, not many people had messed with these engines.

[toycar]

Well I have an H23A and I'm planning on using it in a Honda Challenge class sometime in the next couple years, so I'll see how it does. (No time while in flight school to go and race)

If it throws a rod at some point I will probably replace with H22 but I wanted to put one in the car because back in 2011 when I got it, not many people had messed with these engines.

I think you are aware of the relationship between piston speed and engine failure, but Im going to throw out a couple numbers anyways just in case.


At 9500 RPM's the 95mm stroke is operating at 30+ mps


At 9500 RPM's the 90mm stroke is operating at 28.5 mps



The fastest moving piston in a production vehice was in an s2k, and it was around 21mps.


So, yeah, 95mm stroke makes a difference for sure. Especially if you plan on spinning the engine to higher rpm's, which, correct me if I am wrong is the name of the game in auto-x.



Also, consider the difference in rod length to allow such a longer stroke, and the affects of the rod to piston angle and the studies that accompany that.


Its just a bad designed engine. It really is. Its not meant to be a racecar engine. Sure, you COULD do anything you want.


There is a reason that NOBODY is running one that is doing anything worth bragging about. The science never changes, regardless of opinion. The science doesnt really support the engine being ideal for anything other than moving a heavy ass station wagon in traffic while keeping 20+mpg's. (my opinion)

[phatdoughnut]

Save your money and buy a new car.

[The G-Man]

I think you are aware of the relationship between piston speed and engine failure, but Im going to throw out a couple numbers anyways just in case.


At 9500 RPM's the 95mm stroke is operating at 30+ mps


At 9500 RPM's the 90mm stroke is operating at 28.5 mps



The fastest moving piston in a production vehice was in an s2k, and it was around 21mps.


So, yeah, 95mm stroke makes a difference for sure. Especially if you plan on spinning the engine to higher rpm's, which, correct me if I am wrong is the name of the game in auto-x.



Also, consider the difference in rod length to allow such a longer stroke, and the affects of the rod to piston angle and the studies that accompany that.


Its just a bad designed engine. It really is. Its not meant to be a racecar engine. Sure, you COULD do anything you want.


There is a reason that NOBODY is running one that is doing anything worth bragging about. The science never changes, regardless of opinion. The science doesnt really support the engine being ideal for anything other than moving a heavy ass station wagon in traffic while keeping 20+mpg's. (my opinion)

True, but I'm not spinning that high... my redline is set at 7500 in the CB7 making the piston speed 23.75 mps. We'll see what happens to it down the road.

Save your money and buy a new car.

QFT. You'll be better off in the long run. Money pits!

[2winRB25]

I dunno, maybe its just me but I would rather buy a cheap ass, needs a rebuild crappy POS engine from someone or build one from scratch.



I've seen cylinder heads complete for $300 on ebay from quality sellers.

Engine blocks are around the same money shipped. If you find a used one with the rotational assembly it will be around that as well. $300-$450 for a shortblock needing rebuild is reasonable.


Thing is, I wouldn't go H22 unless I was going to build that bitch anyways. So I wouldn't want OEM valves/springs/retainers/pistons/rods and all timing components would get replaced with OEM goodness.


So, what do you really need here? Crank, block, head, pile of parts(possibly overnighted FROM JAPAN(I kid I kid))


I dunno. I'd rather build anything I was going to run and be proud of. So, I would rather buy that POS with a scored cylinder or turned bearing.



OR, I would buy an H22 prelude and gut/part that POS or swap IN your old F22 and then sell that MOFO to get your money back.

I just don't have the time or desire to go that far. Maybe I'm just lazy, if so then so be it, I guess Ill just be lazy then.

Seriously though, in comparison to other engines that need to be converted to OBD1 and tuned or whatever, you take a look at the OBD1 JDM H22A from HMO and you see how easy it is. I guess I'm just the kind of guy who likes to get from A to B the easiest. A being where I'm at now, blown up, smoking and knocking, and B being set up with a 200hp, 2.2l VTEC DOHC engine with low miles that will run for years.

I'll never understand the fascination with the H23A VTEC. It's OBD2, so it's more complicated to swap in than an OBD1 H22A. The OEM ECU would be difficult to use, and most places don't carry them... so either we run an OBD1 P13, which is not correct, or we use a chipped ECU (which must be tuned, which can be expensive... and might end up being a crappy tune.)

Look at the specs:
H22A: 200 PS (147 kW; 197 hp) @ 6,800 rpm & 161.50 ft·lbf (218.96 N·m) @ 5,500 rpm
H23A: 200 PS (147 kW; 197 hp) @ 6,800 rpm & 163 lb·ft (221 N·m) @ 5,300 rpm

I mean, seriously... same peak horsepower at the same RPM, and 1.5lb·ft more, only 200 RPM lower. "H23A is a beast because of the massive torque!"... my ass.



Anyway, I'm sure hmotors could order more. They're becoming less common, seeing as they've been out of production for well over a decade now... but they're still available.

If you look elsewhere, I suggest going with a company located in the US. Many people like to go to Canadian companies, because they're cheaper (for whatever reason.) When they get a broken engine sent to them, they're pretty much screwed. They can write nasty letters, make angry phone calls, post on every internet forum about their experience... and you know what? Tiger and Osaka (the two biggest Canadian engine importers) have still been going strong, despite at least a decade of people on every forum I've ever been on saying how terrible they are. Nobody from the US can touch them, since an international lawsuit is VERY expensive!
Go with a US company, and at least you MIGHT have some legal recourse if you get a crap engine.

I'm not going to lie the more torque and being at slightly lower rpms grabbed my attention with the H23V. But when you sit back and look at its very minuscule. What else had my attention is they are newer.

They are newer than some other engine options and they are a little cheaper also. But then you have to add the OBD2 and tune in there and it makes it not really all that appealing. To me anyways.

In the end it isn't that complicated to get the H23AVTEC in... just an OBDI distributor, injectors, and a motor mount bracket. But I agree the chipped ECU does ramp up the price, as long as you get a proper tune. At the end of the day though, the H23 does have more potential for power with the right add ons.

Tuning here in the midwest is a pain. I stopped and talked to my neighbor with a turbo hatch just a few mins ago and he said he trailerd his 200 and something miles one way to St Louis for his tune.

They do handheld programmers and diesels here. Other than that I guess you have to know an individual. Then you have to instill a lot of trust in someone you don't know. Its just shitty all the way around. I'm still looking at the option of trailering it to have it tuned though.

There is a good reason they are out of stock. They buy motors that hit the Japanese 35,000 mile limit and the owners would rather sell the car/motor than pay the high taxes to keep the car. By now I would bet nearly any JDM OBD1 Prelude has long since hit the 35k mile limit and since been divided up and resold to the US market. It's not being manufactured anymore so eventually they had to run out of stock. Even if they did find one, how long has it been sitting on a shelf? The motors might be low mileage but by now would need a replacement of all seals anyway.

I would almost prefer a USDM H22A1/4 or H23A non-VTEC motor over trying to get a JDM OBD1 H22A. In my opinion it would be cheaper and easier to get a USDM H22A1 and work with it.

Thats similar to my thinking on the out of stock deal too.

If I could find a complete H22 here for the right price and without having to dick with some kid posting it on craigslist while its still in his wrecked Civic I would.

I don't think that the risk of a tune is something that you can hold against the engine. That type of caution and attention to doing things correctly is something that should apply to tuning any engine. I understand you only mean to say it's a situation you're forced into when choosing that engine for an OBD1 chassis, but I feel that it should just be presented with its necessary accommodations and left at that. Look on the bright side. That engine only came in an automatic transmission station wagon. Think of how easy most of their miles have been. Kilometers, sorry (I kid.). The '00-'01 models have the PDE Euro R head (that's how I got mine), though they always want to sell you the '98-'99 ones. Either way, I think it's a very decent engine that only has minor accommodations necessary to give you a pretty decent engine.

I'm trying not to hold tuning against any engine but really its something I have to consider. Thats the biggest pain in the ass I would have to deal with throughout the whole deal.

The H23V coming in an auto wagon is something I did think on. The chances of it being abused are slim. And its also newer.

I'd still prefer an OBD1 H22A over anything else. Closed deck, easy swap, easily obtainable stock ECU (with a USDM option for those that need emissions testing), and an easily available matched transmission so the powerband will work as planned with the gearing... the fewer things to screw up, the better!

That really sums up exactly what I'm thinking. Its just so simple that way. Buy this, buy that, install, done.

I think the H23 V-TEC is not used by kids as much before they are pulled, maybe that is where desirability comes in, and price. I was comparing prices when I was searching for my non V-TEC engine on ebay and a lot of postings for the H23 V-TEC came up for my search and they were all around $1200 while the H22 were going for about $2000, so price might be a deciding factor as well.

Thats my thinking on the H23V. Chances of it being abused are slim compared to an H22.

Well the OP said he did not want to put a lot of work for rebuilding an engine and something like the craigslist ad would probably involve a lot of rebuilding time. On a side note wish there were more posts like that here, I would jump on that offer myself if I was there.

Exactly, I don't want to, but I still considering.

Save your money and buy a new car.

I have a S14 with an almost freshly rebuilt RB25DET. I'm good on buying a new car. I practically already have one. (Or could have afforded one for the money I have into it.)

[deevergote]

Did you do the RB25DET swap yourself? If so, then at least you have the sense and experience to do an engine swap that is more complicated than the H22A. Any of the H or F engines are likely to be easier swaps than that RB was.
One thing I'm always wary of when advising people what to do with swaps is their experience level. The simpler the swap, the less chance they'll have to screw something up. When you can swap in an OBD1 engine with little fuss, why bother even trying to do OBD2?
The OBD1 JDM H22A into a 90-91 Accord is the easiest of all (the JDM distributor has an internal coil, so the 90-91 harness will plug right in.)

If you know how to rebuild an engine, a rebuild project might end up being your best option. It'll cost more in the long run, and it'll certainly take time... but it's one way to guarantee you have EXACTLY what you want. If an engine replacement isn't imperative at this moment, it might be worth considering.

[2winRB25]

Did you do the RB25DET swap yourself? If so, then at least you have the sense and experience to do an engine swap that is more complicated than the H22A. Any of the H or F engines are likely to be easier swaps than that RB was.
One thing I'm always wary of when advising people what to do with swaps is their experience level. The simpler the swap, the less chance they'll have to screw something up. When you can swap in an OBD1 engine with little fuss, why bother even trying to do OBD2?
The OBD1 JDM H22A into a 90-91 Accord is the easiest of all (the JDM distributor has an internal coil, so the 90-91 harness will plug right in.)

If you know how to rebuild an engine, a rebuild project might end up being your best option. It'll cost more in the long run, and it'll certainly take time... but it's one way to guarantee you have EXACTLY what you want. If an engine replacement isn't imperative at this moment, it might be worth considering.

I did not do the swap myself. I helped every step of the way through the rebuild and the install though. My brother who lives in Lake Worth FL is a Nissan guru and it was his car. He blew the original engine. It sat for a while until he had a friend whos S13 caught on fire before the guy had time to install the RB25. So thats where the RB25 came from. About 3 months after the swap I needed a good reliable car to move up here so he sold the 240 to me.

I think I could tackle a rebuild honestly. There would be some things I would find difficult I am sure but I think I could do it.

I don't have to have the car running right now. I really dont want to be driving the 240 everywhere though. I guess I could buy some riding gear and ride the CBR around the next few months. Split the mileage between the 240 and the bike while its warm.

If I wanted to go this route I guess it would be cheapest to find one locally. I just don't know about the non-LSD trans if I find a USDM one.

[deevergote]

What do you want out of the car?
I have a non-LSD trans (JDM, longer gearing than USDM, which is shortest of all), and it really doesn't bother me. Maybe at the track when launching, but that's it. I don't notice the open diff otherwise.

The only thing you'd want to keep in mind is the FRM sleeves. Find a machine shop that would be willing to hone those sleeves for you. Not every shop knows how to handle FRM, and a clueless shop could cause more harm than good!

[2winRB25]

What do you want out of the car?
I have a non-LSD trans (JDM, longer gearing than USDM, which is shortest of all), and it really doesn't bother me. Maybe at the track when launching, but that's it. I don't notice the open diff otherwise.

The only thing you'd want to keep in mind is the FRM sleeves. Find a machine shop that would be willing to hone those sleeves for you. Not every shop knows how to handle FRM, and a clueless shop could cause more harm than good!

I liked it the way it was. It put down 128 or 126hp to the wheels. I thought that was pretty cool. It was fun until it started knocking and the oil light came on.

Honestly I think a stock H22 will be more than plenty.

As far as honing the FRM sleeves... I live in Hillbilly land. Ill see what I can do. But one thing is for sure, itll be easier to throw a block in the trunk and take it to a machine shop a little ways away rather than have to haul a car to a tuner.

I like the peace of mind the new engine in the 240 gives me. I'm still debating on things but rebuilding does not sound that bad as far as money and time. The power sounds great but I doubt I would use it but once or twice on the strip a year.

[deevergote]

My H22 is still relatively stock, and I'll be honest... it's really all I could want from the car! Too much power in a relatively lightweight FWD car is no fun. The 180whp or so that it makes is plenty. It's well rounded. Reliable, efficient, quick, and easy to work on. Couldn't ask for more!

[XCRN]

If you do rebuild someone on here suggested to me with my H23 is to look into shops that specialize in Porche, they should be able to hone the FRM cylinders.

[deevergote]

Yep. I meant to say that in my last post, and I got distracted by something shiny.

[Jarrett]

Well, crap! Those are on every corner.