Should I turbo?

[honda2014]

Hey guys, I've read a lot on the forum and have learnt a ton, but not as much as I should have. I am still debating whether or not I should turbo or swap to an H22. Without including bolt on mods, I want to focus only on the engine. I have a good running f22a6 with 296xxx miles. An H22 swap would be 2300, or I could rebuild my motor and turbo. A decent turbo set up, lets say, 1500. What parts would I want to replace to make sure that my engine stays intact without long term damage? Would it be more reliable to just keep it N/A? Is it silly to think that a turbo won't damage my engine without mods? I know I would at least want to get cam gears and shafts that were built to handle a turbo, but what about a sleeved engine? Pistons, rods? Forged bottom end? I don't want to get over my head, and every tuner freak where I live by seems to not know much and just say "Throw a little 5 psi turbo on it and keep it stock, won't hurt." I have been learning how turbos work and what they actually require to be a legitimate set. I just needs thoughts and shares of experience. I want to keep my car for as long as possible, and I know the quickest way to blow an engine is to fuck with it enough and not know what you're doing. I honestly just want a fast five speed that is MINE, that I worked on and that defines my interests.

[(({ShauN}))]

Yes!

Going turbo is the best option for the CB's engine.

H22's are too expensive when it comes to modifications and the block is not as strong as a F22.

Here are just a few builds, to give you that motivation:
http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthre...ighlight=turbo

[buzz11]

How much hp are you looking for and what is your budget should help you determine which route you want to go

[mozzandherb]

There are numerous threads here that cover this topic, it's probably the most debated topic on the site (as far as performance is concerned). If you search, you will find many threads...I suggest you read through them. In other words, you will have many people with many different opinions and this will confuse you even further, if you read through the threads already made it will probably help you in your decision.

[toycar]

If you cannot turn a wrench on your own, fab, build an engine or tune, be ready to drop 5 grand or so to do it right.


If you can turn a wrench and build an engine, but cannot tune or fab, you are still looking at 3-4 grand to do it right.


If you can do all of the above, including fab work, you can get it done for 2-3 grand



So really the questions are;

1.) Can you do the work yourself? If not, is there a known quality shop around?

2.) Can you afford it either way?

3.) How bad do you want it?

4.) Do you have a second car to drive during down time?

[deevergote]

H22's are too expensive when it comes to modifications and the block is not as strong as a F22.

100% bullshit.



Anyway, it's your car, and your money. Only you know what you want to do.
Generally, my first thought to anyone that says 'should I do this?' is to say "NO". Because clearly, you don't know enough to make your own decision... which means you probably don't know nearly enough to actually make it happen. Do some research, and answer your own question.

[wildBill83]

Right, I thought there were WAY more parts for H22's, not only that but a closed deck H22 is just as strong as a F22 and the FRM is better for heat disipation. H22 > F22 anyday IMO.

[deevergote]

The FRM sleeves are not compatible with most aftermarket pistons. Over time, that incompatibility has been turned into "weak" or "bad"... when it's far FAR from the truth.
Plus, a real build should have a full resleeve anyway... which makes the blocks identical in terms of strength.

I would boost the F22A, simply because they're more abundant, and far cheaper to replace when you blow it up (and chances are good that you will, if you do it all yourself... most do when they're learning.)
H22A is an awesome engine. I have one myself. But boosting that would only be done if I was prepared to sink 5-10 thousand dollars into it. $5,000, as toycar mentioned, is pretty much the lowest you should ever expect to spend on a proper turbo build... and that will likely be using low-end parts, with the majority of the labor performed by yourself. As soon as you start getting better parts for more power, and getting professionals involved... well let's just say that I priced out a turbo build that topped $10,000 just on paper... and things ALWAYS cost more in real life (unexpected parts breaking, etc...)




Also, to those idiot tuners in your area that say "throw a little turbo on there"... they're morons. You're smart to ignore them. A "little" turbo will essentially be a blowtorch to your engine. You'd be better off running a turbo that's too large, and setting a wastegate to open at a low level of boost. Or better yet, a properly sized turbo. 5psi from a hairdryer will nuke your engine, for little gains. 5psi from a larger turbo will come on much later (larger turbos need more time and exhaust velocity to spool), and will likely produce much more power. Larger is better, because you can go easy on the throttle, keep the RPMs low, and NOT boost when you don't want to. That's great for fuel economy, and reduces wear on the engine.

Do your research. Look at the builds done by others, and understand not only what each part does, but why each part is used in conjunction with other parts. A properly built turbo engine (or any engine, for that matter) is a thoroughly planned system... not a collection of random parts.
Check out these two books: Maximum Boost by Corky Bell, and Honda/Acrua Engine Performance by Mike Kojima. Those two books will give you enough insight into a turbo setup that you'll know what to look for. Then all you have to worry about is ECU tuning. If that's something you're interested, check out pgmfi.org, and do a LOT of reading... then practice on a stock F22A before you attempt to tune a boosted engine. It's hard to blow up a stock N/A F22A... but you could grenade a boosted engine VERY quickly with a bad tune.

[hondamikk]

x2 on what Deev said. I built and boosted my H22. And I love it, but the price tag on it sure hurt. If I knew then the stuff I knew now about it, I'd have passed on boost or just done it myself.

Your main considerations are budget, time, and research. Anyone here will be happy to help, as long as you use proper english (right Deev? lol), but ultimately, the choice is up to you.

[cuate01221]

Why are people saying it costs 5-10k to build a turbo setup? You can easily run 10lbs of boost out of a little turbo for about 3k.

My plan is to just bore the block 1mm over to run the turbo pistons bisi sells, a piggyback ecu, volvo turbo, and that's really all the major things.

Turbo- junkyards for maybe $60?
Piggyback- $250
Pistons+machine work- $1000
Manifold- $100
intercooler+all accesories-$400
dyno tune- $400
clutch- $250
aem a/f meter- $180
dsm injectors- $150 online/ $40 junkyard if lucky
axles- $600


All that is about 3k and you could easily run 10lbs of boost on that without a single problem. I don't see why you would need anything else honestly. Sure with 5k you could make more power, but what's the point of having 500hp on a fwd street car. Hell, what's the point of even having 300hp in a fwd street car? All your going to do is burn rubber.

[deevergote]

As long as the communication is readable, and respectful. The OP actually used "you're" correctly, and believe it or not, reading that is what made me willing to give as much info as I did in my second post. I thought "hey, this guy might actually be smart enough to understand this!"

But yeah, boost is NOT cheap, done properly... and there's quite a bit involved. Once you know each and every part and step of the way, it's not terribly complicated. Not even the tuning part... but it IS a lot to learn for a total beginner. For those unwilling to learn, it's quite expensive to have done professionally.
And I've seen many builds fail, both amateur and professional. When you boost an engine that wasn't made for it from the factory, you essentially have to redesign the entire engine. One small mistake could end up blowing it all to hell.

[deevergote]

Turbo- junkyards for maybe $60? Chances are that a junkyard turbo will need to be rebuilt... and it will have to be a type that fits readily available manifolds... or custom welding will be required. $60 is possible, but iffy.
Piggyback- $250 Bah. Chipped P06. $120... but the hardware needed to make use of it will be another $200 at least.
Pistons+machine work- $1000 you'll need rods to fit the aftermarket pistons, unless you want to trust modifying things to make the stock rods work. Regardless, the price of new rod bearings will have to be included in this, if not new rods... add new rods, and you're jacking the price to $1500 at least.
Manifold- $100 Cheap shit, probably compatible with a DSM turbo... but yes... that can happen.
intercooler+all accesories-$400 All accessories? what, pipes, connectors, etc? I suppose.
dyno tune- $400 It depends on where you go... but that's possible.
clutch- $250 Agreed... though machine work would be necessary on the flywheel.
aem a/f meter- $180 AEM isn't necessary, but not a bad choice.
dsm injectors- $150 online/ $40 junkyard if lucky Agreed... though to be safe, having them professionally cleaned and balanced would be strongly advised, as a poorly functioning injector will create a lean condition in a cylinder, and... well... boom. Cleaning and balancing is about $80 per injector.
axles- $600

In addition to all this, you're going to need:
ALL gaskets and seals... quality is important. Expect to spend $200-$300 here.
Engine oil, coolant, transmission oil... that will add up to about $100.
Oil return lines for the turbo. That's $100.
Custom welding for the downpipe... as I don't believe there are any universal downpipes made for our cars (seeing as we could have a variety of turbo placement locations.)
Upgraded motor mounts (you'll likely be removing the front mount, so you'll need to replace, or at least fill, the remaining three.)
Then there's the cost of replacing any unintentionally damaged components... axles, ball joints, etc... That could easily reach $200.
Fuel pump... the 20 year old stock pump might not be up to the task, even of fueling for low boost... and the last thing you want is too little fuel.
Spark plugs... colder plugs often have higher price tags.
Timing belt and water pump... you'd be a moron not to replace these things when re-assembling the engine.
Oil pump... not absolutely necessary, but probably a good idea to replace while things are apart.
Head studs... ARP studs should be used in place of the stock bolts. You'd be buying new head bolts anyway!


Plan on $5000 MINIMUM if you want it to last. MINIMUM.

[Amiss]

I was thinking about boosting my cb7, but decided against it and instead I'm just gonna buy a miata and boost it.

[deevergote]

Get a Mazdaspeed Miata... it's already boosted.

[Amiss]

Get a Mazdaspeed Miata... it's already boosted.

I really was considering it, but I decided I want an older (93 specifically) because it will be more of a project than a DD and I want to get some more experience working on cars than buying something with everything already done to it.

also I like the body more than the new ones, pop up lights are hawt