Troubleshooting lean condition on turbo H22

[sonikaccord]

Yeah I want to learn tuning as well! I'll probably try it out with the Lude once she's up and running.

I would drive with it as is for now. You might change some of the chi if you move it now

If it helps, I moved my fusebox behind the seat and the only issue I had was a bad crimp connection. I don't think there would be any issue. Most of the important wires are still untouched.

[Raf99]

Alright, it's time to put this issue to bed. Many factors, many situations. But .......

- I tried moving the fuse box to the rear and the car went lean, had battery issues, and was instantly showing battery fluctuations before I got out of the driveway.

- With the fuse box in the front this is the 2nd time tonight I went for a long drive and no issues.

So I understand the issue, I see the issue, but I can't quite grasp it. Something to do with the distance from the alternator to the fuse box. The "B" in the right pic represents the distribution block in the front. also feeds starter and alternator.

[toycar]

Ive been reading along but havwnt really been commenting because im not the greatest at custom electrical stuff. That being said, im decwnt at troubleshooting.


Something is too small of gauge. Pretry sure of that. You are dealing with voltage drop, causing fluctuations in amperage basically. I suck at looking at a loom and understanding how to fix this, but, id bet this is whats going now that youve narrowed it down so specifically.


Any time voltage drops, amperage will spike. Voltage dropping over distance is common and gets exploited on such small gauge wiring.

Could be the ground is common between the map sensor and the distribution block. Just a thought.

But like i said, i suck at the custom wiring side of this. I dont tuck anything i own because of bizarrex really weird problems like this than can arise.good luck. If it were me, id just find a way to live with it in the oem position.


Your car is way to nice to spend so much down time and heart ache, over somerhing like this.

[sonikaccord]

Alright, it's time to put this issue to bed. Many factors, many situations. But .......

- I tried moving the fuse box to the rear and the car went lean, had battery issues, and was instantly showing battery fluctuations before I got out of the driveway.

- With the fuse box in the front this is the 2nd time tonight I went for a long drive and no issues.

So I understand the issue, I see the issue, but I can't quite grasp it. Something to do with the distance from the alternator to the fuse box. The "B" in the right pic represents the distribution block in the front. also feeds starter and alternator.

New image hosting site for you? Cool!

The proper question to ask here is, did you anger the electrons recently?

But seriously, the fusebox feeds a few important engine related things that draw a lot of relatively high current...the fuel pump is one since it is connected to the main relay and the ECU.

Ugh...I forgot the UH fusebox has repeated wire colors for alot of things

The big WHT wire on the 16 pin connector that goes to the IGN switch is important.

The YEL/BLU wire on the 16 pin connector goes to the Main Relay...obviously important.

The WHT/BLU wire on the 16 pin goes to the Dash FB. Might be important.

The WHT/YEL wire on the 16 pin goes to the ECU. This looks like the Back up fuse wire. Still worth checking out.

BLK/YEL wire on the 8 pin connector goes to the alternator. (I think this one powers the field coil...definitely triple check this one)

WHT wire on the 7 pin connector that goes to the dash fusebox. Might be important.

The BLK/YEL on the 7 pin also powers the ELD sensor.
The GRN/RED on the ELD goes to the ECU. This wire is probably sensitive to resistance changes since it is a low voltage already. Make this wire gauge "oversized" to compensate for the added resistance from lengthening.
The BLK on the ELD goes to ground C. I believe this wire should be as short as you can make it. Ground it to the nearest, low resistance chassis point.

EDIT: Everything else looks like it is auxiliary things, lights, horn, radiator fan, defroster...speaking of that what does the car do when the fan kicks on or you put a high electrical load on it with the extension installed?

[Raf99]

New image hosting site for you? Cool!

The proper question to ask here is, did you anger the electrons recently?

But seriously, the fusebox feeds a few important engine related things that draw a lot of relatively high current...the fuel pump is one since it is connected to the main relay and the ECU.

Ugh...I forgot the UH fusebox has repeated wire colors for alot of things

The big WHT wire on the 16 pin connector that goes to the IGN switch is important.
The YEL/BLU wire on the 16 pin connector goes to the Main Relay...obviously important.
The WHT/BLU wire on the 16 pin goes to the Dash FB. Might be important.
The WHT/YEL wire on the 16 pin goes to the ECU. This looks like the Back up fuse wire. Still worth checking out.
BLK/YEL wire on the 8 pin connector goes to the alternator. (I think this one powers the field coil...definitely triple check this one)
WHT wire on the 7 pin connector that goes to the dash fusebox. Might be important.
The BLK/YEL on the 7 pin also powers the ELD sensor.
The GRN/RED on the ELD goes to the ECU. This wire is probably sensitive to resistance changes since it is a low voltage already. Make this wire gauge "oversized" to compensate for the added resistance from lengthening.
The BLK on the ELD goes to ground C. I believe this wire should be as short as you can make it. Ground it to the nearest, low resistance chassis point.

EDIT: Everything else looks like it is auxiliary things, lights, horn, radiator fan, defroster...speaking of that what does the car do when the fan kicks on or you put a high electrical load on it with the extension installed?

Just using my own server for hosting images for now. More reliable than 3rd party now...

But i hear what you are saying. I've studied the manual many times. It's funny how many things go through this fuse box. In fact most the items on the drivers side fuse box get their power from the U/H fuse box.

But let me re-do this diagram...


Now the obvious issue with the fuse box extension is that I fooked up somewhere. It works, but we get the issues we see.

On the left - Although the distance from the battery to the fuse box is the same as the picture on the right, somehow the power fed to battery drops. I think it's simply too long of a line between the alt and the fuse box / ELD. There's also a wire that goes from the ALT to the ECU too.

On the right - Setup that works. Using the same length power wire as the setup on the left.


Prob the obvious answer is that my fuse box extension is not doing it's job

[Raf99]

Went for another drive tonight. All was well for a good hour until I got a check engine light. Brought it up on SManager while in the car and it was for the O2 sensor. Car still ran. Got home and it was sticking lean sitting in the driveway; kind of floating between 15.1 and 17, not quite sure where to go.... Issue fixed itself once I turned the car/key off and then back on. Dirty O2 maybe, but i know it's new.

Funny too, this last drive was the final one before I was convinced my issues were all over with haha.

[F22Chris]

o______O

Staying with the theme here, while being facetious! Maybe the wires from the o2 sensor are too long causing unwanted resistance or something, and it's messing with the signal to the ECU.

Or it can be an exhaust leak, faulty sensor, bad connection, or radio signal interference like one would regularly try and diagnose.

I hope for your sanity and patience that it's and easy fix, man.

[Raf99]

o______O

Staying with the theme here, while being facetious! Maybe the wires from the o2 sensor are too long causing unwanted resistance or something, and it's messing with the signal to the ECU.

Or it can be an exhaust leak, faulty sensor, bad connection, or radio signal interference like one would regularly try and diagnose.

I hope for your sanity and patience that it's and easy fix, man.

Or interference from space :P I'll check out the O2 tonight and go for another drive. I'm not too worried about it. In fact, reading online last night folks who had S100 / S200 had a major bug where after driving for a bit the check engine light would come on for the O2 only when off the gas / hot engine / slowing down from a medium speed. I didn't finish reading, but i'll take that small problem over the huge problem i just finished going through.

[Raf99]

Hmmm.........

[F22Chris]

Well that doesn't look like a lean mixture to me...

The hell?

[sonikaccord]

False reporting???

[Raf99]

So ya, I have the old O2 from when i thought the issue was the O2, and the recently new O2 which is throwing a engine light O2 error. Obvious lazy wideband readings too when it happens. The trend so far is....

- solved lean condition by removing fuse box extension and disable ELD
- 2 weeks later get an O2 error code
- pull the O2, dirty as fook
- clean the O2, retry it. nope.
- tried the other O2, nope

Lookie, lookie, a similar graph is back...



So I threw the car into open loop mode , and it ran like a champ! Which always left me wondering what's the point in closed loop? or when is the transition? Either way, I'm thinking I'm going to get a new O2, and try that. Hopefully be done with all issues.

[Raf99]

Sooo i threw the original O2 in Sally, said "fuck it, let's burn some carbon!" and hit the road. No check engine light, no issues. I figure if I do get an O2 if anything it's related to the ECU or wiring, not the O2 itself.

Sally is back to being a good girl. Case closed
Special thanks to SonikAccord for the help


This all still leaves me a million questions about tuning. Like learning a new OS your brain tries to relate it to something but you can't. ie - why can't a car just stay in open loop? Wouldn't idle parameters be all the same (temp, load, electrical, etc.)? Do tuners like base maps from the OEM so they don't need to go through 2000 settings? How is one tuner able to get better results than another, obviously experience and knowledge; which leads me to wonder can one teach themselves how to tune or is it better to have someone teach you?

I think lot a lot of things I am overthinking it. In my brain if you were to start a fresh map you would just write 14.7's across the board and then tune high end rpms with pulls, aim for rich to be safe and prevent detonation. The "hardware" does all the work. Is it really that simply?

Ya, wish i could pick the brain of a tuner for a weekend. I've downloaded books from the web but none they were generic knowledge. When i have time I read Smanager help.

[toycar]

Is it really that simply? .

For the most part, yes.

Teaching yourself is easier than youd think. Getting it dialed in correctly without a dyno is the hard part.

[sonikaccord]

Sooo i threw the original O2 in Sally, said "fuck it, let's burn some carbon!" and hit the road. No check engine light, no issues. I figure if I do get an O2 if anything it's related to the ECU or wiring, not the O2 itself.

Sally is back to being a good girl. Case closed
Special thanks to SonikAccord for the help


This all still leaves me a million questions about tuning. Like learning a new OS your brain tries to relate it to something but you can't. ie - why can't a car just stay in open loop? Wouldn't idle parameters be all the same (temp, load, electrical, etc.)? Do tuners like base maps from the OEM so they don't need to go through 2000 settings? How is one tuner able to get better results than another, obviously experience and knowledge; which leads me to wonder can one teach themselves how to tune or is it better to have someone teach you?

I think lot a lot of things I am overthinking it. In my brain if you were to start a fresh map you would just write 14.7's across the board and then tune high end rpms with pulls, aim for rich to be safe and prevent detonation. The "hardware" does all the work. Is it really that simply?

Ya, wish i could pick the brain of a tuner for a weekend. I've downloaded books from the web but none they were generic knowledge. When i have time I read Smanager help.

That's crazy that a little ol' O2 sensor caused those other erratic readings...
I'm glad you got it figured out! You are one step closer to being a tuner.

A car running in open loop is essentially "guessing" at the correct air/fuel and timing. Typically, it dumps more fuel in open loop mode because it is safer for the engine.

Idle would change based on tons of factors. If you were to start from scratch I think getting the car to idle smoothly, light load and partial throttle would be the hardest to tune for. WOT is pretty easy since it is less variation.

Base maps...probably so lol.

Tuning is an art and everybody's painting will look different.

I say it is very possible to teach yourself. Are there such thing as tuning classes? Is it lumped into engine management courses?

What you are thinking of is a "self-learning" ECU...I thought about it for my Master's...which I may go back to school for since I'm not too far out the field.