Engine going out

[schierholz]

I Finally find a car I am quite attached to. That being said the engine in her is scarring me a bit and I know she needs work just trying to figure out which kind. So I am going to run over some things she is doing ( I did make post or two on facebook which gave me some good things to check)

First Engine Notes - 22A6- Unknown mileage after tac broke before I bought it at 251k
Driving- No speed pulls except for trying not to get rear ended on a 40mph road... moderate driving

Concern- My Spark plugs look fine like a proper engine, My compression comes to (with a Harbor freight compression tester at ) 1- 90 2-90 3-90 4-120 ish
that should say engine is toast there and I have been looking for a replacement that's not going for $800

Engine runs great with all the power I could ask for...
At first start up there is no smoke emitted out of the tail pipe what so ever
after it gets warmed up *without moving* It still emits no smoke at various revs of 1.5k to 3k

After a drive around the block at idle there is still no smoke emitted until I do try a rev of 3k and there is a very quick puff of blue smoke very faint and very quick

I had my friend follow me around and watch my tail pipe as I did a few speed pulls and revs and he said he saw nothing. In that same sentence just after he left me two lights later I saw a puff out my passager side mirror.. When I take a look at the tip of the pipe I find a paperish type stuff which is very hard to explain but I took the car to the muffler shop and he said that some sort of installation was burning and " it's nothing to worry about"

From research I seem to be finding that It could be my rings or my valve seals
I am running 10-30 in the car and I do plan on a valve adjustment because even though she purrs I hear maybe one or two that tick a bit louder than the rest and yes my Pcv is brand new and lastly no Check light

Has anyone heard of a situation like mine as 1 emitting a paperish type stuff 2 light puff of blue smoke at 3k but not at anything below 3 runs great no power loss

[wed3k]

rings

[H311RA151N]

Yup, mine does the same thing. So has every one I have ever owned with over a quarter million miles.

Get you a long block to rebuild on the side if it concerns you. Once you have a complete engine that's refreshed and ready to go just swap it in. It is very likely the engine you have now that smokes will still be very much alive by the time you get done.

Don't want an F22Ax then build something else to have ready.

If you build an F22Ax proper you will have a good running engine that will last another 20-25 years. And a refreshed engine you will notice has more power. You would be surprised at how much power you have lost with those compression numbers.

[wed3k]

try having the motor torque plate honed, itll be way better for the ring seal/wear

[H311RA151N]

try having the motor torque plate honed, itll be way better for the ring seal/wear

Better than factory or is this done from the factory? Just out of curiosity.

[johnl]

Yup, mine does the same thing. So has every one I have ever owned with over a quarter million miles.

Not mine. It's at a bit 380,000 km (about 236,000 miles). It's never even had the head off, and blows no smoke nor burns any significant quantity of oil (it does leak a little from the front crank seal). Then again mine is an f22A9, which is just better than the other f22 engines (well, not that this would really affect longevity).

It usually gets revved hard a couple of times each time I drive it on my 25km commute (not every time, but often enough), but it also gets 10,000 km oil changes with a high detergency / high flashpoint diesel oil, which should be helping to keep the rings clean and free of stick inducing gunk.

'Bad' rings is often just that the rings are gummed up with varnish deposits that prevent the ring pushing outward against the bore wall (i.e. 'stuck rings'). A proper cleaning often restores compression and oil control, but of course it's not a trivial job to manually clean the rings and lands. If you're lucky the use of a high detergent oil, or a good synthetic oil, or a product such as Auto RX / Seafoam et al might clean the rings enough to restore ring seal (at least somewhat).

When I first started using the diesel oil in my engine, after a few hundred km the engine did seem to pick up a little more power (especially at lower rpm), though this is only a seat of the pants impression. I don't think it's a placebo affect because I wasn't expecting any performance gain from the oil.

[wagon-r]

As Johnl says, the main problem with the F22 seems to be that the rings get choked with carbon.

I bought my 1997 Accord last year. Even though it only had 125k miles (documented by Carfax) and the compression was OK, every cylinder had 15-20% leakage on a leakdown test. When I took out the pistons, I found the cylinder bore was not only within the service specs, it was still within new vehicle specs and much of the factory cylinder honing was still visible. Despite this extremely low wear on the cylinders, the piston rings were virtually immobile due to carbon buildup. Even after soaking the pistons in Chem-Dip for 24 hours, it still took me a half hour for each piston to manually clean the carbon out of the ring grooves.

It seems likely that the low mileage on my engine contributed to the carbon buildup. I'm not sure I would go as far as Johnl and use diesel engine oil, but it does seem prudent to get the engine good and hot occasionally.

[H311RA151N]

Not mine. It's at a bit 380,000 km (about 236,000 miles). It's never even had the head off, and blows no smoke nor burns any significant quantity of oil (it does leak a little from the front crank seal). Then again mine is an f22A9, which is just better than the other f22 engines (well, not that this would really affect longevity).

It usually gets revved hard a couple of times each time I drive it on my 25km commute (not every time, but often enough), but it also gets 10,000 km oil changes with a high detergency / high flashpoint diesel oil, which should be helping to keep the rings clean and free of stick inducing gunk.

'Bad' rings is often just that the rings are gummed up with varnish deposits that prevent the ring pushing outward against the bore wall (i.e. 'stuck rings'). A proper cleaning often restores compression and oil control, but of course it's not a trivial job to manually clean the rings and lands. If you're lucky the use of a high detergent oil, or a good synthetic oil, or a product such as Auto RX / Seafoam et al might clean the rings enough to restore ring seal (at least somewhat).

When I first started using the diesel oil in my engine, after a few hundred km the engine did seem to pick up a little more power (especially at lower rpm), though this is only a seat of the pants impression. I don't think it's a placebo affect because I wasn't expecting any performance gain from the oil.

F22A9, must be an AUS car.

As Johnl says, the main problem with the F22 seems to be that the rings get choked with carbon.

I bought my 1997 Accord last year. Even though it only had 125k miles (documented by Carfax) and the compression was OK, every cylinder had 15-20% leakage on a leakdown test. When I took out the pistons, I found the cylinder bore was not only within the service specs, it was still within new vehicle specs and much of the factory cylinder honing was still visible. Despite this extremely low wear on the cylinders, the piston rings were virtually immobile due to carbon buildup. Even after soaking the pistons in Chem-Dip for 24 hours, it still took me a half hour for each piston to manually clean the carbon out of the ring grooves.

It seems likely that the low mileage on my engine contributed to the carbon buildup. I'm not sure I would go as far as Johnl and use diesel engine oil, but it does seem prudent to get the engine good and hot occasionally.

The OPs engine has over 250k and likely much more than that. I'm still sticking with my original post simply for the fact that it still needs to be rebuilt. The cylinders might be in spec as well as the pistons. But it's still the same procedure. Some might believe in additives and such in attempt to remove to carbon however I'm not so sure of it. I know a few good pulls every once in a while will prevent as much carbon buildup. But once it's there and in excess the only way to remove it is by dissembling and manually removing the carbon from the rings.

[illinois_erik]

my low mileage jdm h22a from HMO, when I disassembled it the oil control rings were gunked up to the point of not moving, the oil holes not even visible, the compression rings were also glued in place with carbon and oil sludge. other than that the valve train looks brand new and bottom of the valve cover still aluminum colored... I soaked each piston in a Piroutte rolled wafer can filled with acetone to get things freed up, and then used a nylon brush with hot water and dawn to clean the ring lands back to aluminum.

So..even with low milage it seems that things can get gunked up quickly I can only imagine what my other f22 looks like (soon will see) after i get the swap completed Ill only be running synthetic oil and premium fuel. (shell) maybe even run a tank of e85 here and there for cleaning. I was also thinking of the kerosene trick for oil changes.

[H311RA151N]

As for keeping carbon out of your newly rebuilt engine (or good used engine) I would be interested in knowing how that can be achieved.

Running clean fuel such as Shell, a few good pulls to 5500rpm or so every tank and keeping everything well maintained is about all I know to help prevent carbon buildup.

johnl, you use diesel fuel and I have heard of that before. I have never used it myself though. You also use diesel oil which I have thought about running in my 3.0L V6 Ford engine.

I have used Seafoam many times properly on one engine I now have almost completely rebuilt and I have to say I don't think it did anything as it looked just the same as all but one F22A I have tore down.

wagon-r, Berryman Chem-Dip is the shit. I love that stuff.

[wed3k]

seafoam does little for oil control rings because it only hits the top compression rings. you would probably need an oil based additive. you should look up BG

[johnl]

johnl, you use diesel fuel and I have heard of that before. I have never used it myself though. You also use diesel oil which I have thought about running in my 3.0L V6 Ford engine.

No diesel fuel, just a diesel engine oil. Typically these have a high flash point so are less likely to 'burn' in the ring lands and on the rings. They are also highly detergent, a characteristic shared with many synthetic oils. I would be wary of using highly detergent oils in engines that have a lot of crap built up in the engine, the detergent effect may liberate enough of this to block the oil filter, maybe...

Also, diesel oils often have quite a lot of zinc, which is a very good ant-scuffing agent (great for cam lobes). Unfortunately it is also a cat converter 'poison', though unlikely to be an issue unless the engine burns a fair bit of oil.

I also have relatively little faith in additives, though they can sometimes work if the problem isn't yet a big problem. Gunk in rings / lands is most likely a result of oil deposits, though a highly detergent petrol may well help keep them clean.

[illinois_erik]

kero/ diesel fuel..guess diesel would be cheaper and have more viscosity same thing nonetheless itll dissolve the sludge/buildup.. I heard of a guy back in the day who bought a brand new camaro and did this every oil change and when they finally went into the engine years later it still looked brand new inside

[wagon-r]

wagon-r, Berryman Chem-Dip is the shit. I love that stuff.

Yes, I used Chem-Dip on almost everything during my engine rebuild. Including disassembling the valve train and dipping every piece. Great stuff and took almost everything off.

Which is why I mentioned it in connection with the carbon buildup in the ring grooves. Even a 24 hour soak in Chem-Dip barely touched the carbon buildup. The only thing that worked was manually removing it with an old ring and using a wire to get the carbon out of the holes in the oil ring grooves.

[XCRN]

I would be wary of using highly detergent oils in engines that have a lot of crap built up in the engine, the detergent effect may liberate enough of this to block the oil filter, maybe.

Though that is a real possibility, I would just treat it like Sea-Foam and only run it for 30 miles and then do another oil change with regular oil.

Something that keeps coming to mind is when the gunk is free from the rings, what's to say you won't lose compression because the carbon was possibly keeping it sealed at this point.