Should I swap?

[Mishakol129]

Hey guys been a while. I just want your personal advice on this. Last year, I did a f23/f22 dohc hybrid build which is running great at the moment. This year however, I'm interested in dropping an jdm H23 vtec in. I want to know what your guys take on this is, going to keep it stockish, just wider than stock pipe, and a H22 ecu/inj. Will this give me the power that I want? Not to mention my cars a wagon and heavier than most, and this engine came stock in a wagon I think that it will be perfect.

Just let me know what you think. I will part out the F22b DOHC head that's on it and the rest of the parts from block.

I'm not short on cash, I just am short on getting it all said and done and then not being amazed at the results. My build did that, but just for a few months. I want something new to swap in it but not %100 sure.


Thanks.

[93redcb7]

Hey guys been a while. I just want your personal advice on this. Last year, I did a f23/f22 dohc hybrid build which is running great at the moment. This year however, I'm interested in dropping an jdm H23 vtec in. I want to know what your guys take on this is, going to keep it stockish, just wider than stock pipe, and a H22 ecu/inj. Will this give me the power that I want? Not to mention my cars a wagon and heavier than most, and this engine came stock in a wagon I think that it will be perfect.

Just let me know what you think. I will part out the F22b DOHC head that's on it and the rest of the parts from block.

I'm not short on cash, I just am short on getting it all said and done and then not being amazed at the results. My build did that, but just for a few months. I want something new to swap in it but not %100 sure.


Thanks.

it really depends on what YOUR looking for, for some people an h22/23 is fine.
also why would you run a h23 on h22 injectors and ecu? seems pointless to me, use the correct ECU or get it tuned, and adding more injector will do nothing for you if there isnt more air going in

[Mishakol129]

I'm talking about when doing the H23 vtec swap you need H22 injectors and ecu...

[CyborgGT]

You need a tuned ECU; the parameters of the H22 ECU are designed for the H22, which is not exactly the same as the H23V. Different displacement, different redline & rev characteristics because of the longer stroke, different powerband. If you want reliability, get an ECU tuned for the engine you're running. The H23V was OBDII-only, so you'll need a chipped OBDI computer.

Personally, I'd say do the swap. Especially if you're wanting to keep what ever engine you have stock aside from the typical bolt-ons, you'll never look back once you have that power under the hood. Going with an H22 instead would simplify the whole ECU issue, but that's really up to you. H23 will always be a mean option.

[dj_ender]

Burn it down, and buy a Cavalier.

[Mishakol129]

You need a tuned ECU; the parameters of the H22 ECU are designed for the H22, which is not exactly the same as the H23V. Different displacement, different redline & rev characteristics because of the longer stroke, different powerband. If you want reliability, get an ECU tuned for the engine you're running. The H23V was OBDII-only, so you'll need a chipped OBDI computer.

Personally, I'd say do the swap. Especially if you're wanting to keep what ever engine you have stock aside from the typical bolt-ons, you'll never look back once you have that power under the hood. Going with an H22 instead would simplify the whole ECU issue, but that's really up to you. H23 will always be a mean option.

Mean option as in good option? I think the whole ECU issue should be fixed with a Phearable H23 blue top basemap, someone on the facebook group said they had it and worked fine, but they wanted a custom tune as it wasn't enough power for them, haha.

The engine I got now its pretty stout but its got no Vtec. Basically what I'm gonna be getting is the same as I got now just with Vtec and higher compression (wonder what it will do to gas mileage).

I'd want to remove the knock sensor for the custom basemap, pretty sure they can do that for me. IAB's were never quite working right for me nor the knock sensor for my engine I got now when I used the P14 ECE. Really the only things I'm worried about. That and the fact that if my engine I get (JDM) has bad rings or is worn, it might be a bitch to rebuild being its FRM sleeves. But I think I want to order the engine and get it all setup, it would be rad to have. Never gone H22 or H23 Vtec, they really are freaking boss motors. Kinda like the F20C only older. You get so much power for so few cylinders, high performance like woah. Or so I heard and seen in many videos.

[CyborgGT]

Yeah, "mean" as in good, lol - at least in my opinion, but I have a taste for the uncommon. You won't find too many Accords with H23A VTEC or F20B swaps. Stock for stock, I think my JDM H22A with 60k miles got about 5mpg less than my F22A1 with 250k miles, but they were both automatics.

Phearable is who I'm going with as well once I get to the electronics part of my build's parts collection. They seem to know what they're doing. I don't know anything about tuning, so my opinion on that is pretty worthless, but I wouldn't trust a basemap for anything other than a careful drive to a dyno for a proper tune. Someone with experience could probably chime in on this...

And yeah, the power-per-liter is what I love best about Honda. In that respect, their performance engines are on the level of Ferrari and Porsche, only on a smaller scale (the F20C actually held the world record for power-per-liter of a production naturally-aspirated piston engine for several years until Ferrari released the 458 Italia and beat it by 1hp, then I think the latest 911 GT3 RS went on to beat that). I'm not into drag racing, so I couldn't care less about all-out power. The engineering is what I find cool.

[Mishakol129]

Why would a H23 Vtec basemap chipped ecu not be right for that engine? Seems like it would. Give me your exact reasons why. And yeah, a P13 wouldn't be the right ecu either, but it would run.

[deevergote]

"Basemap" is a term used for a fuel map intended to get the engine running so it can be properly tuned.

The lack of a proper OBD1 ECU is an issue. NO aftermarket tune is ever going to work as well as a factory tune. Certainly not for a street car. Anyone who tells you otherwise is trying to sell you something, or they have been misinformed themselves.

There are parts on the H23A that are not available in the US. Parts that will have to be ordered from overseas. Not everything is going to be shared with the H22A.


Ultimately, do what YOU want to YOUR car. Personally, I would never swap anything but an H22A into my car. The potential gains of the H23A are far too little to bother with the hassle, and the engine looks exactly like an H22A... so I couldn't even properly show it off without telling each person that looks at it what it is!

If you want to do something that can be done 100% correctly, as if it belonged in the bay from the factory, get an H22A. If you want to be "different", like everybody else, go for the H23A or F20B.

[GhostAccord]

As mentioned above, a basemap can be OK for getting your engine started and some light to moderate driving. You don't want to go hammering on the throttle without any sort of engine monitoring on a basemap tune. At the very least you should have a wideband O2 so you can monitor the AFR's. A way to monitor knock would also be a good idea. Poor engine timing is just as fatal to an engine as improper fueling.

Most basemaps are a conservative estimate of fuel and timing for what your engine will require to run. This can leave some of the performance and fuel economy out the window. It is always best to have a follow up with a tuner. That way they can go over some datalogs and make adjustments if necessary. This will net you the most bang for your buck.

[Mishakol129]

As mentioned above, a basemap can be OK for getting your engine started and some light to moderate driving. You don't want to go hammering on the throttle without any sort of engine monitoring on a basemap tune. At the very least you should have a wideband O2 so you can monitor the AFR's. A way to monitor knock would also be a good idea. Poor engine timing is just as fatal to an engine as improper fueling.

Most basemaps are a conservative estimate of fuel and timing for what your engine will require to run. This can leave some of the performance and fuel economy out the window. It is always best to have a follow up with a tuner. That way they can go over some datalogs and make adjustments if necessary. This will net you the most bang for your buck.

Spoke with Phearable. I asked " More specifically I'm looking to know if this basemap will run the car properly or if it will need a tuneage. Some ppl were saying that no, it needs a custom tune on a dyno with a basemap. What do you say do you know if its good to run 100% with just a basemap alone?"

They responded,

"95% of our customers have no issues with our basemaps for applications like yours & drive their vehicle with no dyno tuning needed."


Either Phearable just wants to sell me something, or people who get these don't know that you should tune as well. Or it really does run the engine just fine like stock

[deevergote]

You have heard two conflicting points of view. One is from someone selling a product. One is from someone who is not. Who you choose to believe is your call.

[CyborgGT]

At the same time, I don't see why Phearable's map couldn't match Honda's own map for the H23V, just adapted to an OBDI ECU. So, it could work 100% okay without a tune. It's not as if Honda themselves strap each and every one of their cars onto a dyno for a custom tune; it's the same map copied onto thousands of ECUs and plugged into cars with that specific engine.

[deevergote]

I find it hard to believe that an aftarmarket ECU tuner could even come close to Honda's in-house tuning. Honda's ECUs are tuned to work best with the engines as they are when they are new... and practically uniform. Any aftermarket tuner has only dealt with used engines, in various stages of wear... with less expertise and likely fewer man-hours datalogging, programming, re-resting, re-programming, etc...

Phearable has a good reputation, and I don't mean to put them down... but to say that their products are as good as that which come from Honda directly is a bit naive.

[GhostAccord]

Like I said, it should work but there should always be some sort of fuel and ignition monitoring done before you really start to hammer on it.

Any basemap, created with closed loop enabled, that is remotely close with it's base ignition and fuel maps will work for driving around town and getting from point A to B. The short term and long term fuel trims will eventually even out and take care of SMALL differences in engine setups. That being said, Open Loop conditions such as start up, WOT and/or heavy load situations may, I will stress the word MAY, require some added attention.

If anyone is not sure how open and closed loops work..... Google it!