the Gun Control thread

[owequitit]

Stewie has the Canadian hard head and the Canadian pride. That’s not a bad thing; it just pisses off people who aren’t Canadian

He’s not saying that the US is so bad as he’s saying Canada is so great.

You’re not going to tell him anything different than what he already believes.

I wish we had a country that we could believe that solidly on. But our people and government are so diversified.

Stewie, I don’t agree on everything you said but I respect your opinion.

It isn't a matter of respecting his opinion. If I didn't respect the differences, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

It is a matter of claiming a solution to a problem that doesn't work, and then trying to back it up with ideology and numbers that don't work. If someone wants to take my civil liberties away, they damn well better be able to substantiate it with something better than false senses of security, ideology and indoctrinated misinformation.

For the record, Canada is a great country. Probably the 2nd highest on my list of places I would like to live. But that doesn't change the core of the argument, nor does his national pride. It isn't about national pride. It is about effective solutions to a very real problem, that doesn't punish good people.

[stewie]

yes, i feel much safer in my home country, as you would in yours. its perfectly normal to feel that.

but one question though, on your last sentance, about finding an effective solution to a very real problem that doesnt punish good people.

the only punishment from what ive suggested, would be to restrict military weapons from public(aka, certain assault rifles). from my point of view, i dont see that as a punishment at all. also with a mandatory gun safety course, test, and indepth interviews to see if a person is mentally stable to own one. any good person would be easily able to obtain a firearm from doing those tests.

but i am curious. what were your suggestions to gun control? (summed up version, cant read through 8 pages of quotes to find 1 sentance)

[H311RA151N]

It isn't a matter of respecting his opinion. If I didn't respect the differences, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

It is a matter of claiming a solution to a problem that doesn't work, and then trying to back it up with ideology and numbers that don't work. If someone wants to take my civil liberties away, they damn well better be able to substantiate it with something better than false senses of security, ideology and indoctrinated misinformation.

For the record, Canada is a great country. Probably the 2nd highest on my list of places I would like to live. But that doesn't change the core of the argument, nor does his national pride. It isn't about national pride. It is about effective solutions to a very real problem, that doesn't punish good people.

By saying "I respect you opinion" I was making sure he knew that by using the term Canadian and what I said about Canadians that I meant nothing bad about him. I wanted to make sure I didn’t sound racist or prejudice against Canadians.

So that wasn’t directed at you or anyone. That was just for me to soften up anything that could have been harsh.

Also, Im definately not for gun control BTW. Look in the "Gun owners post up" thread. I have like 10 guns.

[stewie]

ps - you guys can say anything to me, its not going to be taken personally, what goes in this thread wont affect my views of any of you outside of it on this forum.

hellraisin, ive seen 90% of the posts in that thread, pretty sure ive seen yours, i own several guns myself. im currently looking for a shop that has or can bring in a sig sauer p226 platinum elite 9mm

-edit-

owequitit, didnt even see the post you made after you had that looooong quoted post.

what im reffering to there about doing more productive things in their free time is that in the US, out of all the houses that have loaded firearms, in public view to kids/teens, what mind set is that giving them?
as we were little boys, we'll pick up sticks and use it as a gun,and play cops and robbers at school during lunch, if we cant, we make a fist, and use our index fingers and stick our thumbs up. every boy does it. with that boy going home and seeing firearms (locked up in open view or unlocked in open view) just feeds them more desire to play cops and robbers. watching their parents go to the range, handling the weapons, getting the wow factor from watching them shoot. its no more different then a boy watching his parents drive and being infatuated with it, watching them shift, use the center console pushing buttons. when the kid gets to the age when hes legal, hes gonna want to drive. im refferencing that as to when a boy gets to age, he gonna want a gun. kinda like monkey see monkey do (not calling you monkey ). i honestly feel that if you hide the guns inside a safe, a boy will grow out of wanting to own/play with them, and eventually, the boy will be a man and have no desire anymore and if not, his desire will only go as far as 1-2 weapons for safety, not owning as many as he can just cause he can.

i know america has just as many opportunities as canada, even in remote "redneck" areas, but being exposed to guns at an early age doesnt seem right to me. the only way i can imagine a child being exposed to a gun, is when theres a gun rack on a wall, rifles on it, with trigger locks, and the gun is not handled directly infront of a kid.

but again, just my point of view. everyones is different.

[H311RA151N]

Yeah but someone else might come in a thread and think otherwise. I always cover my ass anymore. I dont want to get banned or labled as anything bad.

I can see it now. Under H311RA151N it will say Member of the Klu Klux Klan

Sig Sauer makes awesome pistols. When I got my Mil Pro the guy handed me a 9mm Sig.

[toycar]

http://guncontrol.ca/wp-content/uplo...deaths2012.pdf

as to #3, yes, he was a psychopath who killed his mother with a hammer, then lit his house on fire killing his sister and first responders. its pretty sad that its that easy to get a stolen gun in america.

you can pretend i didnt say whatever you want thinking i dont know what i'm talking about. its a different way of living up here, and guess what...its a whoooole lot safer...learn something from it.

Guy didn't even have a stolen gun. Some chick bought them for him. He owned them for years when this happened. It's all over the news that they arrested the chick that did it for him.


Bet she gets less than 5 years, and out in less than 3 with good time.

This is a huge part of the problem.

[Ralphie]

Damn this is a good convo.

I agree with what Scott wrote, as always he conveys it better then most.

I just think Stewie has a misunderstanding of the concepts.

I def understand your stance stewie, don't strip guns, just outlaw assault weapons and make it tougher for everyone to get one.

It just won't work.

The proof is all around.

Look at Israel, the NRA called them out as being LAX on this subject, and they responded by correcting them and explaining that Israel has very strict gun laws.

Yes, when you visit Israel, as I have, you will see people in plain clothes with guns on their hip.

A lot of places.

The majority, however, do not have guns.

In Israel it is mandatory to serve, so anyone above a certain rank, or if you live in the West Bank, or have a reason to own(security for goods or valuables) then you get a permit...if not, then you don't and Israel rejects most of the applications it gets.

Does that stop Hamas from killing anyone?

Hamas are terrorists, but they are people, who you could say are mentally ill for arguments sake.

So while guns are not hard for them to get, they still murder and terrorize(which is what Adam Lanza did, and the nut in NY)

So with Israel having tought laws, im not sure on their crime rate, but they have plenty to worry about as they are in constant worry of attack from the surrounding countries and yet they keep their laws strict because they leave the policing up to the people who it needs to be done by.

With that said, Israel admitted what works for them, might not be best for the U.S. and to kindly leave Israel out of the U.S. gun control debate.

So what works for Canada might not work for the U.S. and vice versa.

No place on earth is the same, so no one set of rules will work everywhere.

What I find interesting though, is that guns are all over the news lately and it is pretty un nerving but again, the media loves this shit so its also not surpising.

I wonder how many crimes go unheard of.

http://www.nbcnews.com/travel/tsa-co...012-1C7753890#

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012...s-buyback?lite

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012...s-suicide?lite


Of those 3 articles, the fucking rocket launchers are the stand out one.

I mean its sad that a father who lost his daughter to an accidental discharge, took a weapon and shot himself, but I can't fathom losing a child and im not even a parent yet. I just think he could have advocated for her instead of taking the easy way out and shooting himself. It's an insult to her memory.


Also the fact that the TSA confiscated a record # of weapons is also scary. What I get from that, is just that the TSA finally got their shit together and are making headway as opposed to just making our lives miserable and getting no where.

But the question remains......why do those people feel the need to bring a weapon on an aircraft? Without specific training, your 100% guarenteed to do more harm then good if you happen to sneak a weapon on for safety.

Air Marshalls are trained to shoot someone from 20 ft away while shooting between two seat headrests.

Im pretty confident no one on here could do that, myself included.

So leave the fucking guns at home.

The terroists on 9/11 only had box cutters, so a gun wouldn't be necessary. Just some good ol'e street fighting skills.



But rocket launchers on the streets of LA?

I mean they were missing the projectiles and parts to make them functional, but its obvious the devestation those can cause if they were working properly.

When you have the firepower to shoot aircraft out of the sky, something is wrong.

I just don't know.

I still don't think tighter restrictions are the answer but im not sure what is.

[toycar]

I think that there are a few things that will have a minimal impact, but with 318 million people in question the results could be real. If asking gun owners to buy a safe and offering some sort of incentive could happen, and only 1% of people did it you are still talking about millions of people.


It only takes one Adam Lanza. So, the effects would both be minimal, and productive. On one hand you could argue that the one "Adam" is still going to do harm to innocent people.



On the other, you could just as easily argue that you will never know how many problems you prevent. Millions of people making an adjustment to their gun control would have an impact.


It would.


***Edit***


Had to do work, lol



Anyways-I think the only thing we can really do is manage policy, not re-write it. People will always argue both sides of this issue, and both be right and wrong. Its hard to argue with the guy that is a good citizen, has good gun control habits and is responsible. Its equally hard to categorize that guy, with the dumb son of a bitch that leaves loaded guns under their pillow or on the dresser.



But, as "citizens" you both have equal rights. Moron or not, you are legally viewed as equals. So, because of this both sides of the equation will always be both right in some scenarios and wrong in others. In my opinion, that is why we have to make small changes that will have a minimal impact at first glance but the long term effects could make a difference.


Why can't a trigger lock be incorporated into the cost of buying every single gun? Seriously, what are we talking about ten extra dollars? Little changes that would have a bigger effect is where I think the best opportunity for change are at.

[stewie]

ralphie, not sure who you agree with when you said you agree with "scott" lol (im assuming owequitit? but not 100% sure)

for the 3 stories you posted, i do believe i saw the one with the little girl killed on the bus on the news, and i do remember the la gun buy back program on the news with the rocket launcher (must've been a slow day up in canada lol)

yeah the father shooting himself was a bad way out, but once depression sets in, its hard funk to get out, especially if he cant afford the pills to level his emotions out.

with the TSA, im not even sure why anyone would try to sneak a gun on a plane? do people actually think its going to pass the xray or metal detectors lol???

toycar, every gun ive bought has come with a complimentary trigger lock. buy a rifle/pstiol over the counter, they just say the locks are over there, pick one. if your already spending 1000$+ on a rifle or a pistol...i highly doubt its going to break the stores piggy bank if they let a 10$ lock go for free lol.

the gun safe civilian witih his guns locked up sees the guy with the loaded pistol under his pillow or in the dresser as an idiot whos unsafe, especially with kids in the house. whereas the guy with the loaded pistol under his pillow sees the guy with the guns locked up as an idiot whos unprepared

[zmanwit90accord]

Some interesting and ignorant views in this video. Thought it'd be interesting for those who are way more mature than the ones in the vid.

[uslspct]

The root of the violence isn't in the guns as most of the pro-gun people will point out. But that doesn't mean everyone should own one. That's insane. But that doesn't mean a law will prevent that. The root of the cultural decay will not stop with more laws or less laws.

The "Problem" is the people. You can't significantly stop gun violence by passing new laws more so than you can stop a terrorist willing to kill himself to reach his goals. You can't fight the crazies but you can make less of them. If you could instantly change that Jihadist to a Buddhist, I bet he won't want to kill you anymore. The policies and attitude as a whole would have to change to see a reduction in gun violence or any other improvement of society. But I think we are past that point in this country. In every aspect of our country and in many European countries, it is disintegrating from within and the far majority now are too stupid, lazy, brainwashed, or just don't care to do anything about it.

I, then, will be for any law that causes more death and hastens this country's demise into the history books. Maybe I can get a cabin in Northern Canada and watch it all.

[owequitit]

yes, i feel much safer in my home country, as you would in yours. its perfectly normal to feel that.

but one question though, on your last sentance, about finding an effective solution to a very real problem that doesnt punish good people.

the only punishment from what ive suggested, would be to restrict military weapons from public(aka, certain assault rifles). from my point of view, i dont see that as a punishment at all. also with a mandatory gun safety course, test, and indepth interviews to see if a person is mentally stable to own one. any good person would be easily able to obtain a firearm from doing those tests.

but i am curious. what were your suggestions to gun control? (summed up version, cant read through 8 pages of quotes to find 1 sentance)

ps - you guys can say anything to me, its not going to be taken personally, what goes in this thread wont affect my views of any of you outside of it on this forum.

hellraisin, ive seen 90% of the posts in that thread, pretty sure ive seen yours, i own several guns myself. im currently looking for a shop that has or can bring in a sig sauer p226 platinum elite 9mm

-edit-

owequitit, didnt even see the post you made after you had that looooong quoted post.

what im reffering to there about doing more productive things in their free time is that in the US, out of all the houses that have loaded firearms, in public view to kids/teens, what mind set is that giving them?
as we were little boys, we'll pick up sticks and use it as a gun,and play cops and robbers at school during lunch, if we cant, we make a fist, and use our index fingers and stick our thumbs up. every boy does it. with that boy going home and seeing firearms (locked up in open view or unlocked in open view) just feeds them more desire to play cops and robbers. watching their parents go to the range, handling the weapons, getting the wow factor from watching them shoot. its no more different then a boy watching his parents drive and being infatuated with it, watching them shift, use the center console pushing buttons. when the kid gets to the age when hes legal, hes gonna want to drive. im refferencing that as to when a boy gets to age, he gonna want a gun. kinda like monkey see monkey do (not calling you monkey ). i honestly feel that if you hide the guns inside a safe, a boy will grow out of wanting to own/play with them, and eventually, the boy will be a man and have no desire anymore and if not, his desire will only go as far as 1-2 weapons for safety, not owning as many as he can just cause he can.

i know america has just as many opportunities as canada, even in remote "redneck" areas, but being exposed to guns at an early age doesnt seem right to me. the only way i can imagine a child being exposed to a gun, is when theres a gun rack on a wall, rifles on it, with trigger locks, and the gun is not handled directly infront of a kid.

but again, just my point of view. everyones is different.

ralphie, not sure who you agree with when you said you agree with "scott" lol (im assuming owequitit? but not 100% sure)

for the 3 stories you posted, i do believe i saw the one with the little girl killed on the bus on the news, and i do remember the la gun buy back program on the news with the rocket launcher (must've been a slow day up in canada lol)

yeah the father shooting himself was a bad way out, but once depression sets in, its hard funk to get out, especially if he cant afford the pills to level his emotions out.

with the TSA, im not even sure why anyone would try to sneak a gun on a plane? do people actually think its going to pass the xray or metal detectors lol???

toycar, every gun ive bought has come with a complimentary trigger lock. buy a rifle/pstiol over the counter, they just say the locks are over there, pick one. if your already spending 1000$+ on a rifle or a pistol...i highly doubt its going to break the stores piggy bank if they let a 10$ lock go for free lol.

the gun safe civilian witih his guns locked up sees the guy with the loaded pistol under his pillow or in the dresser as an idiot whos unsafe, especially with kids in the house. whereas the guy with the loaded pistol under his pillow sees the guy with the guns locked up as an idiot whos unprepared

You just keep on supporting my point, by spewing your total ignorance about the way things are in the US. Thanks though, because you are converting most of the people on the fence with it...

1) I didn't say anything about feeling safer in my own country than yours. Yet again, you twist my words to attempt to mean something I didn't say.

What I DID say was that in over 30 years in the US, I have never had a gun crime committed against me. I also have been all over most of the country and have far more experience within US borders than you do. It was actually to illustrate the point the numbers support. Gun crime in the US is NOT more prevalent when adjusted for population differences.

The fact that you got me feeling safer in my own country from that shows just how disconnected your perspective of reality in the US really is. Also, for the record, I feel about the same in Canada, as I do in the US, because rather than adopting some false reality, I understand the actual numbers, which say they are about equally as safe as each other. No distraction from the point will change that, despite your best efforts to the contrary, because I will just keep pulling you back to it.

2) Your assertion about constructive things to do was total bullshit and you know it. There aren't any more past-times in Canada than there are in the US. Point blank, hardcore, bullshit busting reality, and you KNOW it. But when faced with it, you simply assert (again falsely, because you have no realistic experience with the "US" other than some light, and occasional border hopping), that we somehow have guns laying all over waiting to be picked up. More bullshit. Most houses with guns DO have them locked in safes, safetied, and with trigger locks on them (which are also issues with ALL US gun purchases, as are locking cases). You would be hard pressed to find a house with guns just laying around in the US than you assert. But then again, you would have to actually have experience to understand that.

3)Our children get more exposure to killing, guns and violence from video games than they do from REAL guns (just like your country).

You are simply expanding the display of your relative lack of knowledge about what goes on outside of Canada, meanwhile you are continuing to use an outmoded, outclassed, and bullshit agenda to push solutions for a problem that you don't even understand. Not only does that completely diminish the aptitude of your solutions, but the effectiveness (or rather, lack thereof) has already been well discussed. You keep pushing a Canadian-centric viewpoint that has absolutely no relevance to the discussion in the United States. Not to mention that you completely and blatantly disgraced our founding document that is paved in blood, and saved your own people from having to pursue bloodshed to seek their own independence.

[owequitit]

The root of the violence isn't in the guns as most of the pro-gun people will point out. But that doesn't mean everyone should own one. That's insane. But that doesn't mean a law will prevent that. The root of the cultural decay will not stop with more laws or less laws.

The "Problem" is the people. You can't significantly stop gun violence by passing new laws more so than you can stop a terrorist willing to kill himself to reach his goals. You can't fight the crazies but you can make less of them. If you could instantly change that Jihadist to a Buddhist, I bet he won't want to kill you anymore. The policies and attitude as a whole would have to change to see a reduction in gun violence or any other improvement of society. But I think we are past that point in this country. In every aspect of our country and in many European countries, it is disintegrating from within and the far majority now are too stupid, lazy, brainwashed, or just don't care to do anything about it.

I, then, will be for any law that causes more death and hastens this country's demise into the history books. Maybe I can get a cabin in Northern Canada and watch it all.

This is not the case. As with radical Christians, Jihadists simply use Islam as a way to justify their means, but they have to twist it completely into something it isn't intended to be in order to achieve that, just like any radical, fascist group of terrorists. Ultimately, they twist Islam into something it isn't so that it APPEARS to justify their desire for hatred and distruction. Actually, if you look at the four fundamental religions in the world, they ALL teach the same basic code of ethics (predicated on treating others the way you want to be treated, not stealing, killing, etc.), but all four are twisted by various groups to mean other things.

Interestingly, 3 of the main religions (Christianity, Islam, and Judaism) all have the SAME origin, in the same region, during the same time, but differ in detail matters and developments after the initial creation and life of Jesus Christ and the prophets.

The only constant historically, is the ability of people to find some cause, some justification, or some reason for their bad behavior. It doesn't matter if it is religion, politics, or some other reason, bad people will always find a way to justify their bad behavior. It is our job as a society to not let them get away with it, which is something we have failed at horribly for 30-40 years now, and it is catching up to us.

No amount of gun control is going to solve the problem, and the sooner people realize that, the sooner we MIGHT be able to make real progress on the issue.

[uslspct]

by Ron Paul

The senseless and horrific killings last week in Newtown, Connecticut reminded us that a determined individual or group of individuals can cause great harm no matter what laws are in place. Connecticut already has restrictive gun laws relative to other states, including restrictions on fully automatic, so-called “assault” rifles and gun-free zones.

Predictably, the political left responded to the tragedy with emotional calls for increased gun control. This is understandable, but misguided. The impulse to have government “do something” to protect us in the wake national tragedies is reflexive and often well intentioned. Many Americans believe that if we simply pass the right laws, future horrors like the Sandy Hook Elementary shooting can be prevented. But this impulse ignores the self evident truth that criminals don’t obey laws.

The political right, unfortunately, has fallen into the same trap in its calls for quick legislative solutions to gun violence. If only we put armed police or armed teachers in schools, we’re told, would-be school shooters will be dissuaded or stopped.

While I certainly agree that more guns equals less crime and that private gun ownership prevents many shootings, I don’t agree that conservatives and libertarians should view government legislation, especially at the federal level, as the solution to violence. Real change can happen only when we commit ourselves to rebuilding civil society in America, meaning a society based on family, religion, civic and social institutions, and peaceful cooperation through markets. We cannot reverse decades of moral and intellectual decline by snapping our fingers and passing laws.

Let’s not forget that our own government policies often undermine civil society, cheapen life, and encourage immorality. The president and other government officials denounce school violence, yet still advocate for endless undeclared wars abroad and easy abortion at home. U.S. drone strikes kill thousands, but nobody in America holds vigils or devotes much news coverage to those victims, many of which are children, albeit, of a different color.

Obviously I don’t want to conflate complex issues of foreign policy and war with the Sandy Hook shooting, but it is important to make the broader point that our federal government has zero moral authority to legislate against violence.

Furthermore, do we really want to live in a world of police checkpoints, surveillance cameras, metal detectors, X-ray scanners, and warrantless physical searches? We see this culture in our airports: witness the shabby spectacle of once proud, happy Americans shuffling through long lines while uniformed TSA agents bark orders. This is the world of government provided “security,” a world far too many Americans now seem to accept or even endorse. School shootings, no matter how horrific, do not justify creating an Orwellian surveillance state in America.

Do we really believe government can provide total security? Do we want to involuntarily commit every disaffected, disturbed, or alienated person who fantasizes about violence? Or can we accept that liberty is more important than the illusion of state-provided security? Government cannot create a world without risks, nor would we really wish to live in such a fictional place. Only a totalitarian society would even claim absolute safety as a worthy ideal, because it would require total state control over its citizens’ lives. We shouldn’t settle for substituting one type of violence for another. Government role is to protect liberty, not to pursue unobtainable safety.

Our freedoms as Americans preceded gun control laws, the TSA, or the Department of Homeland Security. Freedom is defined by the ability of citizens to live without government interference, not by safety. It is easy to clamor for government security when terrible things happen; but liberty is given true meaning when we support it without exception, and we will be safer for it.

[uslspct]

Following a document made more than 200 years ago, full of a country of an entire different populous is stupid. It didn't contain the best ideas then, and it sure isn't going to now. If one believes we have a right from the constitution to own guns I believe it should be amended. Along with countless other things. But this will never happen. So in a world of the hypotheical, the most responsible thing would be to dissolve the Government and Constitution and execute 90% of the population. There is no convincing the Jew based religions to give up their religion and belief as to who is right and there's no convincing the capitalist worshipers to give up theirs. Kill em all and start from scratch if we want to make a choice, for surely nature will run it's course and it might end up even worse.