NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden..

[phatdoughnut]

They won't fry him


And my point was pretty simple man. You are that AFRAID that you would rather give up your rights then live in a world where people die sometimes?

People are going to die either way.


Nothing the intellegience community has done did anything to PREVENT Boston, and the only reason they executed a "flawless" plan was the crime spree that said,"hi we are terrorists. Come get us please"



Granted they sifted through PRIVATE video and eventually ID'd the guys based on CITIZEN reports but they didn't even know their names until they went on a spree.



And this was WITH these programs in place. So, do you feel like your rights being violated yielded the kind of results that they are preaching about?



Seems to me like terrorists are still blowing shit up, people are still going on rampages all over America and nothing has really changed-WITH THESE PROGRAMS IN PLACE.



So, seriously, without them what happens? How often do you read/see on the news that they thwarted a plot? I mean it happens occasionally, but for the MILLIONS of people that are losing their rights and freedoms, I don't think the results warrant the violation of privacy. I dont.


They couldn't do anything to stop the Boston guys, and they were actually ON the radar. People will always be off the radar too, like Adam Lanza. Its a fallacy to think that any amount of "reach" will avoid stuff like this happening. There are just too many people in the world.


Giving up your rights though, that shit has real consequences across the board to every single person in our country. That to me is a real problem. Probably an unintended consequence of the "war on terror" but continuing down this path is exactly what the terrorists want.

How can you stand so firmly next to your constitution when the gov violates it constantly? What does the country stand for if the constitution means nothing?


These are real issues being forced by terrorists, not the gov. The gov cannot help themselves but feel like their actions are justified by "threat" however, acting on that feeling is basically handing over the control to our enemy.


The situation reminds me of parenting. Sometimes your kid is willing to be bad, to piss you off. How do you stop this cycle once you identify it? Stop getting pissed off. Adjust your expectations to what is happening, and stop playing into the bullshit.


That applies here. These guys don't even have a country to claim as their own, an air force, a navy, NOTHING.

Why do we put them on such a pedestal? Of course it costs billions of dollars to hunt down 1 person in a world of what 8 billion and millions of square miles. OF COURSE THAT TAKES SOME EFFORT.

Why acknowledge them as a problem in the first place?



In any single day more people die from starvation than violence. See what I am saying? Its not that it is not a problem. Its that the problem shouldn't be priority #1, theres plenty of other shit going on to focus on.

This times 1 million infinity. WHY THE FUCK ARE WE TRYING TO SAVE EVERYONE! PEOPLE DIE NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO.

That is also why I am having issues with stupid newtown, there are five times as many kids that die from not having food for fucks sake.

[Ralphie]

Come on guys really?

People die everyday, that's not the point.

So we should just not even try anymore? Real American.

and also as far as starving children, I hope you're not referring to kids outside the US?

Enough already with the World Police.

We need to focus right here, as people are clearly taking the bombings here.

Don't worry about the starving kids outside the US.....there are plenty of non profit agencies that go over there and help. Just keep donating your .50 a day and it will be ok.

[LadyG]

Vigilant citizenry does more to stop terror plots that the gov. The underwear bomber is a great example.

I am not going to write a novel- and I could- as I was screaming "WTF" at the tv in 2001 when the Patriot Act was first implemented.
I saw that burning pile of rubble at Ground Zero. I saw the memorials and words written in the dust on the buildings around lower Manhattan...
and I still think that we are scared bitches that let our immediate fear open the door to making ourselves "suspect".

You know, as fast as the terror landscape has moved, (we are now drone sniping Americans in other countries, something 13 years ago that we could NOT even imagine doing) we should be wary. If you don't think that "accidents" happen...
There was a "Frontline" episode last year about a professor in Oregon who was "ghosted" b/c "his" fingerprints were found at a bombing site. Turns out, it WAS NOT him- and he was only returned to civilization, because they caught the REAL terrorist- in the Middle East.

If you think a bureaucracy *ahem* VA *ahem* can do this efficiently- I'm glad for your cozy bed of ignorance. I do not share it.

[phatdoughnut]

Come on guys really?

People die everyday, that's not the point.

So we should just not even try anymore? Real American.

and also as far as starving children, I hope you're not referring to kids outside the US?

Enough already with the World Police.

We need to focus right here, as people are clearly taking the bombings here.

Don't worry about the starving kids outside the US.....there are plenty of non profit agencies that go over there and help. Just keep donating your .50 a day and it will be ok.

I am talking about right here in our own back yard. Gun and terroristism is a small small fraction of deaths here in the USA, we could save a lot more by focusing on other more important issues.

Which brings up another good point, I FUCKING HATE! seeing ads on tv of "americans" going abroad to help out and being "humanitarian". GAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH thats one of my pet peeves.

[deevergote]

Honestly, it's all politics. It's ALL politics. Some statistician tells the lawmakers that they'll have better public approval ratings if they implement plan X, rather than plan Y. The Patriot Act was passed to appease the masses crying that the government should've done more to protect them. They passed it, and now everybody is up in arms about "big brother". Had they not done such a thing, everyone would say that they're not doing enough to protect this country.
After all, George W Bush was up for re-election! (not blaming it on Bush... the same would likely have happened under Obama, or Clinton, or freakin' fat-ass Taft.)


I guess the Patriot Act doesn't really bother me in any sense other than in theory. I have nothing to hide. The government has no reason to listen to my phone calls, see my internet logs, read my texts, track my travels... I have nothing to hide. I have nothing of interest. They are no more invading my privacy than my neighbors are when they look out the window and see me retrieving my daily newspaper from my front walk.
Seeing as I have nothing interesting going on, chances are pretty damn good that nobody is invading my privacy.

[deevergote]

I am talking about right here in our own back yard. Gun and terroristism is a small small fraction of deaths here in the USA, we could save a lot more by focusing on other more important issues.

Which brings up another good point, I FUCKING HATE! seeing ads on tv of "americans" going abroad to help out and being "humanitarian". GAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH thats one of my pet peeves.

I can't argue that one bit.
I suppose we look toward external threats and far-away crises because they're something that we can more conceivably fix. We can feed a starving kid in Africa. We feel strong, supportive, important when doing so. We can combat some faceless terrorist that is threatening to invade our borders and hurt us.
We don't want to look inward. We don't want to see our own poor. We don't want to see our own discontent. We don't want to see the threats within our own borders. They're much more difficult to fix, or to distance ourselves from when we can't fix them (I mean seriously... have we ever actually "fixed" anything in Africa? No... but it makes us feel good to donate 35 cents a day to feed some little kid with flies on his eyeballs.)

[bigpoppa694lyfe]

I just wanna say... HANDS DOWN BEST POLITICAL THREAD EVER!!! I personally give Snowden props on his actions. And to address an earlier comment about the fed's using these tactics to apprehend the Boston bomber... No. If it weren't for the actions of a regular citizen... Dude would of either disappeared or died in that boat. The authorities were leaving the neighborhood because they had no clue were he was until the old man on the corner called them back

[LadyG]

I guess the Patriot Act doesn't really bother me in any sense other than in theory. I have nothing to hide. The government has no reason to listen to my phone calls, see my internet logs, read my texts, track my travels... I have nothing to hide. I have nothing of interest. They are no more invading my privacy than my neighbors are when they look out the window and see me retrieving my daily newspaper from my front walk.
Seeing as I have nothing interesting going on, chances are pretty damn good that nobody is invading my privacy.

Actually, they are. They are running everything, from everybody, through an algorithm. It looks for connections, not so much specifics- unless you get pinged.
Also, look at the IRS thing- (and before anybody says it, I am NOT a teabagger) what the IRS did was illegal, (discrimination by the gov based on political affiliation is unconstitutional) but they did it.
And really, the point is not about now- its about the long game. Who's to say that by us even having this conversation, now, that in 5 years this wouldn't "ping" us in an algorithm? Its all about lines, and where we are willing to draw them.

And may I remind everyone, 9/11 didn't happen because the Patriot Act didn't exist- it happened because the frame work of security we already had, dropped the ball. Rather than fixing the agencies already in place- we made an even bigger bureaucracy, with even more power.

MOAR POWER.

That is all.

[deevergote]

True. And yes, this will most certainly be read. Google does the same thing (they don't like our foul language used back in 2008... )

But it's just a computer, looking through our publicly submitted information. Reading through our publicly posted words is not an invasion of privacy. Monitoring our phone calls is... but I'm sure I could call my mom right now and tell her 20 times that I want to kill the president and nobody will be aware of it.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't defend our privacy, but I do think that things are being blown a bit out of proportion. There are far too many people in this country for Uncle Sam to be watching us all. The only ones that get watched are the ones that draw attention to themselves.
Perhaps that's the skewed viewpoint of a college educated 33 year old suburban white male homeowner. I'm pretty much as low as you can get on the threat meter.

[Ralphie]

Actually, they are. They are running everything, from everybody, through an algorithm. It looks for connections, not so much specifics- unless you get pinged.
Also, look at the IRS thing- (and before anybody says it, I am NOT a teabagger) what the IRS did was illegal, (discrimination by the gov based on political affiliation is unconstitutional) but they did it.
And really, the point is not about now- its about the long game. Who's to say that by us even having this conversation, now, that in 5 years this wouldn't "ping" us in an algorithm? Its all about lines, and where we are willing to draw them.

And may I remind everyone, 9/11 didn't happen because the Patriot Act didn't exist- it happened because the frame work of security we already had, dropped the ball. Rather than fixing the agencies already in place- we made an even bigger bureaucracy, with even more power.

MOAR POWER.

That is all.

So if we stop running these algorithms what do you suggest?

I do agree, to an extent, that ordinary citizens prevent their fare share of crime. NYC has done well with a "see something, say something" program.

That's not reliable enough. While you might say something, Deev may not.

No one is asking anyone to put their total faith in the Govt. Just like any major entity, they make mistakes. If you want to petition and fight them tooth and nail, go ahead, that's your right.

I'll fight for you to have it, but I just don't agree.

At the end of the day, I do feel they do more good then bad. Most of the negativity is based on radio or talk show bs and is slandered.

It's not this big evil conglomerate.

So if you don't like them running names across a database, then I guess we should get rid of the no fly list right? Just let everyone fly?

Where do we draw the line?

[deevergote]

If there IS an evil conglomerate, it's only because we allowed them to create such a thing.
Granted, such seemingly paranoid discussions such as this one are often the way to uncover and remove such shady characters.

It's a fine line between factual concerns and conspiracy theory.

[toycar]

One issue I take up with this program specifically is that is doesn't really do much for results.


Second, the program will be a tool to be used when they want. They wouldn't catch deeve talking about wanting to kill the prez with his momma. They would find it AFTER THE FACT when they learned about deeve some other way, and then they would be concerned.


It won't prevent anything. It provides them with information after the fact. It will guide them once they are already onto something, and then that might lead to preventing something. It might not though, and FOR SURE IT VIOLATES OUR RIGHTS AS CITIZENS. It MIGHT be helpful, it DOES violate our rights.


The results compared to the millions of people losing their right to privacy is a concern. They aren't ever going to stop doing this now that it has started, so, whats next? Whats the next secret program? When will it stop? They are already disregarding the constituion, this program is basically proof and then they are arguing that the threat of the unknown validates their actions.


Yeah, they used to throw suspected witches into the river to see if they floated too. How well did that work out for a long term policy?








As mentioned, programs like this only exist because we let them.


My question, who let this happen? I mean, somebody allowed a HUGE violation of the constitution, so, who allowed that?

The pres? The CIA? The NSA?


What gives them that authority?



Oh, rules schmules right. Forgot about that.




Ok, well carry on two-stepping on my rights then brother. Go for it. Who cares. You guys are doing such an awesome job preventing all this terrorism, (high fives) right on broski!



So basically, with this excuse at their side(terrorism) they can do whatever they want to MILLIONS OF PEOPLE in lieu of saving a couple hundred lives.





BTW, if every attack they thwarted had been a success something like 1000-2000 people might have died. And that is seriously some high casualty numbers per attack thwarted.






1 tornado killed 167 people in Joplin MO in 2011.






So, yeah it sucks people die.



Programs like this will NEVER be anything other than justified reactions. As long as these fuckers are willing to raise the bet, the USA will be at the table gambling.



At some point you either win, go broke or walk away.


Doesn't seem like we are winning, attacks still happen constantly and wars have broken out all over the world since 9/11.


We are already broke, gambling on our childrens future.


When do we walk away?

[Ralphie]

I hear a lot of whining but I don't see cheese.


Where are the suggestions in place of monitoring?

Huh? Im listening.

Im not hearing anything.

I don't believe you have an expectation of privacy with phones. Mobile or landline.

You pay for a privledge. You pay to use the phone. No expectation of privacy. It's a nice luxury, but do you expect the same privacy from public phones?

If you got caught calling your drug dealer because they screened the records looking for someone else and caught you instead would you be mad?

Hey that was a private call right?

No.

So then what's the difference?

If you have something to hide, maybe phones are not for you. If you have nothing to hide, then it shouldn't make a difference.

Im not advocating for them to run wild, but come on is it really that serious?

You can try to slant it anyway you want, but just because you have no proof that something wasn't prevented doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

It has in fact happened, it might not be the results you want, but hardly comparable to a Tornado.

And yes we all get the fact that people will die, but that's not a reason to not try to stop crazies.

[Ralphie]

Perfect example-

The no fly list.

How many times have you heard about a 6 year old being on it?

Or someone who is 102?

Its funny right? You think to yourself, "wow good job GOVT!"

But you're not hearing the hundreds of times that list has stopped potentially dangerous people from boarding a flight.

If you think that any "list'' or phone monitoring is going to stop 100% of people otherwise its not worth it, then you are grosly misinformed on how life in general works.

There is no fix all for humanity, or human beings, who by nature, are the most unpredictable.

[LadyG]

You pay for a privilege. You pay to use the phone. No expectation of privacy. It's a nice luxury, but do you expect the same privacy from public phones?

If you got caught calling your drug dealer because they screened the records looking for someone else and caught you instead would you be mad?

Hey that was a private call right?

No.

So then what's the difference?

Actually Raphie, Its called a warrant, which pre 9/11- they needed to get your info from the phone companies.
Phone companies YOU PAY FOR, and (pre 9/11) would not give your info up without a warrant because OF THE EXPECTATION of privacy. The 4th amendment.
Fix what we had pre-9/11, revert back to that- and eliminate the surveillance state. Repeal the Patriot Act.

Did any of you watch the video to the end? He tells you what is going to happen.