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F22a1 running lean

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    #1

    F22a1 running lean

    I bought a air fuel ratio gauge today and when running the car at idle the gauge sits at the very bottom of lean, and anywhere from idle to WOT it will only reach the top of the lean part of the gauge.

    The car wont pass emissions it says possible dilution detected I believe that is because the muffler is rusting out, or is it possible that the motor is running too lean?

    I am thinking of running seafoam through the intake mani to clean out possibly plugged up injectors?

    Honestly I don't know where to start I just changed the plugs, cap, rotor, and plug wires.

    Anything will help. I need to pass emissions soon or I cant transfer title and will be charged late fees.

    Thanks!
    Tags: None
    #2
    Where are you measuring, at the tail pipe? If so, a leaking exhaust could cause dilution (although the slightly higher pressure in the exhaust shouldn't allow fresh air in). The O2 sensor is what provides feedback to the computer for fuel/air ratio; if it isn't working correctly, it could cause the engine to run lean. If you replace it, get and NGK, not Bosch.

    Running seafoam through the manifold won't do much for the injectors - you would need to run it through the tank so that it goes through the injectors.
    90 LX 4dr 5 spd 396,014 (sold 1/1/2022) - MRT: http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=201450
    08 Element LX FWD AT 229,000 - MRT: fleetw00d : 2008 Honda Element LX - CB7Tuner Forums

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      #3
      Originally posted by fleetw00d View Post
      Where are you measuring, at the tail pipe? If so, a leaking exhaust could cause dilution (although the slightly higher pressure in the exhaust shouldn't allow fresh air in). The O2 sensor is what provides feedback to the computer for fuel/air ratio; if it isn't working correctly, it could cause the engine to run lean. If you replace it, get and NGK, not Bosch.

      Running seafoam through the manifold won't do much for the injectors - you would need to run it through the tank so that it goes through the injectors.
      True, running it through the tank would clean the injectors, I am going to do both.

      The car has 290k miles, I am doubting that the o2 sensor has ever been changed, when I bought it the distributor cap and plug wires were full of blue dust instead of metal. I looked at my local Honda's website they want 253$ for the OEM sensor. So, Ill have to make a decision on that.

      As far at the emissions testing since it is obd1 they stick the probe in the exhaust pipe and plug into the cigarette lighter. The first place I went to it said "Dilution Detected" or something like that they had a short probe, then I went to another place with longer probes and it said it intermittently but still wouldn't pass the car. I have limited time to get it to pass before getting *******'d by the DMV. I might try to patch the exhaust and try again, and then get a cat back.

      I appreciate your help/feedback.

      Comment

        #4
        Ordered the OEM 02 sensor from autozone today for 80 bucks, instead of 250 from Honda. Also bought some seafoam, if neither works EGR cleaning it will be. Until I order my F20B or H22.

        Ill post results incase anyone can learn anything from it.

        Comment

          #5
          Could've gotten NTK or Denso from Rockauto for about $35.

          Most narrowband air/fuel gauges are fairly worthless. They're essentially just a light show.






          Comment

            #6
            Originally posted by deevergote View Post
            Could've gotten NTK or Denso from Rockauto for about $35.

            Most narrowband air/fuel gauges are fairly worthless. They're essentially just a light show.
            Well, now I know better for the next time about the 02 sensor! Thanks for that.
            As far as the narrowband Deevergote, the car it came out of (cb7) it was reading stoich/rich at WOT and that's where my concern lies. I should have mentioned that. I ran seafoam through the tank and TB and now it is reading into stoich on acceleration, at the bottom of it.

            At idle it will sit lean and then it blinks all the way rich for one second almost like a pattern. I read that means the egr could be plugged and it's igniting a lot of fuel in one cylinder maybe? Or, well one of my spark plugs is stuck in I'm gonna get it out tommorow that's the way I bought it so I have 3 new plugs and one that could be garbage.

            Or perhaps I'm reading too much into this gauge I don't know how accurate it is but I don't think something is right. It's just the difference in the way it reads between two cars with the same motor.

            I appreciate your feedback though, thank you.
            Last edited by RaiderCb7; 05-03-2014, 09:49 PM. Reason: Type o

            Comment

              #7
              Sorry about the NGK recommendation for the 02 sensor, I was thinking (brain flatulence) about the Denso Deev mentioned. If you ordered an NGK, I think it should work well also (still a better deal than OEM from Honda).
              90 LX 4dr 5 spd 396,014 (sold 1/1/2022) - MRT: http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=201450
              08 Element LX FWD AT 229,000 - MRT: fleetw00d : 2008 Honda Element LX - CB7Tuner Forums

              Comment

                #8
                Narrow band gauges are no good for reading actual AFRs. They only read 0-1v where as a wideband will read from 0-5v range. Not to mention that there response times are very slow. They are not the most reliable tool to use to fix your issue.

                If your O2 sensors were old and dirty they would usually cause a rich condition not so much a lean condition. As the O2 would be reading leaner exhaust gases it would result in the ECU adding more fuel.

                If you have an aging exhaust system I would look to that as your "dilution" issues. Any small hole in the exhaust can draw in air from outside that will dilute the exhaust gas readings from the tail pipe.
                MR Thread
                GhostAccord 2.4L Blog

                by Chappy, on Flickr

                Comment

                  #9
                  Originally posted by GhostAccord View Post
                  Narrow band gauges are no good for reading actual AFRs. They only read 0-1v where as a wideband will read from 0-5v range. Not to mention that there response times are very slow. They are not the most reliable tool to use to fix your issue.

                  If your O2 sensors were old and dirty they would usually cause a rich condition not so much a lean condition. As the O2 would be reading leaner exhaust gases it would result in the ECU adding more fuel.

                  If you have an aging exhaust system I would look to that as your "dilution" issues. Any small hole in the exhaust can draw in air from outside that will dilute the exhaust gas readings from the tail pipe.
                  makes perfect sense, going to get a new muffler just to pass emissions. im already past the 2 weeks to not get penalized in title transfer, but when its said and done ill be able to fix the bearing that's shot, both tie rod ends, and other bits and pieces and finally build the car I have wanted. Finally have the money to do so, I am excited! Thanks all

                  Comment

                    #10
                    don't believe that narrow band garbage.do you self a favor..pull your spark plugs to see if you truly are running lean.if they are anything close to white or gray thats lean.. if not dont worry about it.so from what i want to ask.
                    why would you put a a/f gauge on a stock motor with stock computer.my guess would be for a light show but to each his own i guess...

                    my new turbo build

                    Comment

                      #11
                      NGK (well, NTK... same company) and Denso are the OEM brands, I believe. To my knowledge, that's what you get from Honda when you pay their exorbitant prices.

                      And yeah, sorry for my brief reply before. I didn't mean to make it seem like I was trying to piss on your cheerios!

                      The narrowband gauges often don't really provide any useful reading. Checking your spark plugs for signs of running lean will be a much more reliable way to do it. You could always invest in a wideband o2 sensor, but that's a bit of a hassle and expense.

                      The new o2 sensor should fix the problem. If you're running lean and not throwing a CEL, then the problems are probably deeper than imagined. If you can get your hands on another ECU, that might help.

                      Also, if you want to clean the injectors, put seafoam in the gas tank.






                      Comment

                        #12
                        Note on the Seafoam for cleaning injectors..... gasoline is a pretty good solvent so if 32-48psi of gas flowing through the injectors don't clean them putting seafoam in the gas tank won't ether.

                        if you have ever taken an engine apart the injector face/disc is very rarely dirty. And the intake manifold where the fuel is sprayed is also usually pretty clean. That is why we only ever fogged the intake manifold when it came to using Seafoam to clean intake manifolds and combustion chambers.
                        MR Thread
                        GhostAccord 2.4L Blog

                        by Chappy, on Flickr

                        Comment

                          #13
                          I ran seafoam through the intake mani and put it in the tank.

                          To the question of why would I put that gauge in? Maybe I like light shows. Who cares, Im not on here to judge anybody just learn and possibly help others.

                          I appreciate the input, cars off to dads metal fab shop to get hopefully a little patch put on the muffler or a new muffler to get it past emissions testing. That f22 isn't staying long anyhow. Main concern was emissions, but was very curious why there wasn't a 'light show' on my 'light show gauge.'

                          BTW, your corner lights, and head lights smoke, light show?

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