Not the typical idle issue?

[johnl]

When I got in the car this morning, when I first started it, it was actually a little over 2K. I didn't wait for it to slow down on it's own, backed out of the driveway onto the road, and put it in drive. It basically drove itself, meaning I didn't need to accelerate. It went at a low rate of speed, but it didn't slow down. The road I live on is short, so I did have to stop soon at a stop sign. I'm curious how long it would have kept going on it's own before slowing down.

When I got in the car this afternoon to go home, the idle was little over 1K. Not sure if it being warmer outside had anything to do with that. There's a fairly steep drop from our parking lot onto the road, so I held it back to go slow to not scrape the bumper and then had someone behind me so I accelerated and didn't get to see if it would drive itself this afternoon.

I suspect you might have an issue with the 'fast idle control valve'. This is the valve that controls idle speed when cold, what causes the rpm to start high and then progressively lessen as the engine warms up a to some degree. The colder the valve is the more 'aggressive' it is, so it's affect is likely to be less on warm days than say after a cold night, and less so when the engine hasn't fully cooled down after running.

I expect there is an upper limit on how 'aggressively' it functions, i.e. it may reach it's most 'enthusiastic' performance at X° but not become more so at X-°.

Personally I don't think this valve is very necessary. If the idle rpm were too low at start up then the IACV would open up to bring the idle up to spec idle, which should be enough. If the 'FICV' were not operating then the engine might be a bit less responsive when dead cold, but it won't last long. At any rate, my experience is that the 'FICV' doesn't operate for very long (but then, I don't live in a particularly cold area).

If I thought my FICV was faulty then, rather than paying for a new one, I'd blank off it's air passage ways so that it was isolated from the plenum void, in much the same manner as the IACV can be blanked off to disable it's function.

[802cb7]

I suspect you might have an issue with the 'fast idle control valve'. This is the valve that controls idle speed when cold, what causes the rpm to start high and then progressively lessen as the engine warms up a to some degree. The colder the valve is the more 'aggressive' it is, so it's affect is likely to be less on warm days than say after a cold night, and less so when the engine hasn't fully cooled down after running.

I expect there is an upper limit on how 'aggressively' it functions, i.e. it may reach it's most 'enthusiastic' performance at X° but not become more so at X-°.

Personally I don't think this valve is very necessary. If the idle rpm were too low at start up then the IACV would open up to bring the idle up to spec idle, which should be enough. If the 'FICV' were not operating then the engine might be a bit less responsive when dead cold, but it won't last long. At any rate, my experience is that the 'FICV' doesn't operate for very long (but then, I don't live in a particularly cold area).

If I thought my FICV was faulty then, rather than paying for a new one, I'd blank off it's air passage ways so that it was isolated from the plenum void, in much the same manner as the IACV can be blanked off to disable it's function.

I would love to block off all tht stuff. but I do live in a state where it can get wel below 40* in the winter.

[802cb7]

wasnt able to make it to the junk yard today. (Had to work)

But this whole thing I'm dealing with is driving me crazy. What would cause the car not to be able to stay at a base idle setting? I'm getting a new known good distributor off my friend tomorrow, and will be using a timing light to adjust timing. I'm going to start fresh, what procedures should I do? What would you experts do? I need to fix this

[802cb7]

holy good info here!!!

http://honda-tech.com/honda-accord-1...oblem-2396645/

[johnl]

What would cause the car not to be able to stay at a base idle setting?

Air leaks, i.e. gasket leaks, vacuum tubes leaks, etc.

An air leak at the O ring on the TB idle adjustment screw. The screw being loose and not able to hold an adjustment (O ring worn).

Butterfly valve set too open at the stop screw. Dirty butterfly valve (deposits holding butterfly slightly open?).

Faulty IACV. Faulty fast idle control valve. Faulty gaskets on either of these.

PCV valve faulty.

All I can think of at the moment.

[802cb7]

Air leaks, i.e. gasket leaks, vacuum tubes leaks, etc.

An air leak at the O ring on the TB idle adjustment screw. The screw being loose and not able to hold an adjustment (O ring worn).

Butterfly valve set too open at the stop screw. Dirty butterfly valve (deposits holding butterfly slightly open?).

Faulty IACV. Faulty fast idle control valve. Faulty gaskets on either of these.

PCV valve faulty.

All I can think of at the moment.

I bought a timing light today, its adjusted. The distributor is turned almost all the way to the left!!! Thought they were supposed to be more in the center? I've tried over and over and over again to get the idle correct. I follow the steps, and adjust the screw, however every time the idle almost always goes back to about 850-900! The car still feels like a pig, I've looked everywhere for vacuum leaks with no luck. At this point the idle screw is turned all the way clockwise. I have checked, and re checked the procedures to make sure I'm following correctly. I'm at a major loss. I've cleaned, the iacv, the fitv, I have bled the cooling system, New plugs, cap, rotor, pcv, etc etc. Checked and cleaned all grounds. This is crazy!

[johnl]

I bought a timing light today, its adjusted. The distributor is turned almost all the way to the left!!! Thought they were supposed to be more in the center? I've tried over and over and over again to get the idle correct. I follow the steps, and adjust the screw, however every time the idle almost always goes back to about 850-900! The car still feels like a pig, I've looked everywhere for vacuum leaks with no luck. At this point the idle screw is turned all the way clockwise. I have checked, and re checked the procedures to make sure I'm following correctly. I'm at a major loss. I've cleaned, the iacv, the fitv, I have bled the cooling system, New plugs, cap, rotor, pcv, etc etc. Checked and cleaned all grounds. This is crazy!

The idle speed shouldn't of itself affect performance.

The distributor should be at least near to the centre of it's adjustable rotation. That to get a correct base ignition timing you are having to fully 'advance' the ignition (i.e. rotate the distributor body, turning it anti-clockwise as viewed from the right hand side of the car) suggests the possibility that the camshaft belt may have jumped a tooth...? (or have been incorrectly fitted?).

If so, then the camshaft (and therefore the valve timing) is likely one tooth retarded. The distributor rotor position is determined by the camshaft position so will also be similarly retarded, so to get the correct base idle ignition timing would require the distributor body to be advanced (rotated anti clockwise) to account for the rotor being retarded. If this is a correct guess, then the valve timing being retarded would be enough to account for the car to "feel like a pig".

However, I'm not sure that the valve timing being incorrect would account for a high idle speed that is immune from adjustment at the TB idle speed air bleed screw, at least I can't see why it shouldn't be possible to bring the idle speed down by closing the bleed screw, regardless of ignition or valve timing. Idle speed requires X air flow, if idle air flow is X+ then reducing air should still bring the idle speed down, unless something else is going on (i.e. air is getting into the plenum after the TB).

I would think first things first, check the valve timing, and proceed from there.

[802cb7]

The idle speed shouldn't of itself affect performance.

The distributor should be at least near to the centre of it's adjustable rotation. That to get a correct base ignition timing you are having to fully 'advance' the ignition (i.e. rotate the distributor body, turning it anti-clockwise as viewed from the right hand side of the car) suggests the possibility that the camshaft belt may have jumped a tooth...? (or have been incorrectly fitted?).

If so, then the camshaft (and therefore the valve timing) is likely one tooth retarded. The distributor rotor position is determined by the camshaft position so will also be similarly retarded, so to get the correct base idle ignition timing would require the distributor body to be advanced (rotated anti clockwise) to account for the rotor being retarded. If this is a correct guess, then the valve timing being retarded would be enough to account for the car to "feel like a pig".

However, I'm not sure that the valve timing being incorrect would account for a high idle speed that is immune from adjustment at the TB idle speed air bleed screw, at least I can't see why it shouldn't be possible to bring the idle speed down by closing the bleed screw, regardless of ignition or valve timing. Idle speed requires X air flow, if idle air flow is X+ then reducing air should still bring the idle speed down, unless something else is going on (i.e. air is getting into the plenum after the TB).

I would think first things first, check the valve timing, and proceed from there.

You really know your stuff! Thank you for all your help, Dont know if this tells you anything. But, when I was going to originally change the rotor I had the cap off trying to turn the engine enough so I could get to the set screw. I did this by using the starter. I wasnt able to actually replace the rotor at the time and had to put the cap back on. Now, (if youre still following me?) when i went to start the car I had that super fast barley even turn of key "HONDA" start, and the car was really fast for about 30 mins. Maybe less 15-20 mins. do you see what I'm saying? Then when I actually did have a chance to change the rotor I used the same method with similar results. fast for 15-20 mins +/- a few.

[johnl]

You really know your stuff!

I know some stuff. There's a lot I don't know.

Now, (if youre still following me?) when i went to start the car I had that super fast barley even turn of key "HONDA" start, and the car was really fast for about 30 mins. Maybe less 15-20 mins. do you see what I'm saying?

No, not all...

In particular; "I had that super fast barley even turn of key "HONDA" start" means nothing to me, it appears to be gibberish. Can you try explaining it in a different way?

[802cb7]

I know some stuff. There's a lot I don't know.



No, not all...

In particular; "I had that super fast barley even turn of key "HONDA" start" means nothing to me, it appears to be gibberish. Can you try explaining it in a different way?

I'll try. I've been in lots of honda/acura's where when you go to start the car you barely need to turn the key and its starts right up. So what I'm trying to say is; when I turn over MY car with the distributor off, then put it back on, I get that same quick start, and the performance is there for around 15-20 minutes of sustained driving. Then it goes away, and I seem to have a longer amount of time that the starter turns.

See what I'm saying?

[johnl]

I'll try. I've been in lots of honda/acura's where when you go to start the car you barely need to turn the key and its starts right up. So what I'm trying to say is; when I turn over MY car with the distributor off, then put it back on, I get that same quick start, and the performance is there for around 15-20 minutes of sustained driving. Then it goes away, and I seem to have a longer amount of time that the starter turns.

See what I'm saying?

That's a better description. Not that it helps much, the symptom is weird. It seems likely to be a coincidence, unless you can reliably replicate it.

If the cam belt has jumped a tooth, then it may be possible for it to 'jump back', and then to later jump again.

[802cb7]

That's a better description. Not that it helps much, the symptom is weird. It seems likely to be a coincidence, unless you can reliably replicate it.

If the cam belt has jumped a tooth, then it may be possible for it to 'jump back', and then to later jump again.

Oh, and is it just a matter of getting all the timing marks lined up perfectly? I have moved the crank so the camshaft pulley is lined up, the white + mark on the fly wheel is now lined up. so everything is at TDC at this point. Is that right? Then put everything back together, jump the diagnostic plug, and check dizzy timing? right?

Thank you!!!

[johnl]

Oh, and is it just a matter of getting all the timing marks lined up perfectly? I have moved the crank so the camshaft pulley is lined up, the white + mark on the fly wheel is now lined up. so everything is at TDC at this point. Is that right?

Yes, the white mark is TDC. There are two marks on the front of the camshaft sprocket (180° apart) that at TDC need to line up with the edge of the head casting (as seen from the front of the engine). Best to find an illustration, there should be some online. Ensure that the belt isn't slack...

Note that I'm not saying the valve timing is definitely wrong, but it's the first thing I'd be checking given your issues with distributor position when you have the ignition timing correct, and poor performance.

Then put everything back together, jump the diagnostic plug, and check dizzy timing? right?

Yes. If the cam is correctly positioned relative to the crank then when the ignition timing is correct the distributor should be somewhere near the centre of it's rotational adjustment.

[802cb7]

Yes, the white mark is TDC. There are two marks on the front of the camshaft sprocket (180° apart) that at TDC need to line up with the edge of the head casting (as seen from the front of the engine). Best to find an illustration, there should be some online. Ensure that the belt isn't slack...

Note that I'm not saying the valve timing is definitely wrong, but it's the first thing I'd be checking given your issues with distributor position when you have the ignition timing correct, and poor performance

Well Johnl, You have helped me to figure this out. Car is close, and it feels better, but yes, there is some pretty major slack in the Tbelt . The PO said it had recently been done, and it looks very new, its OEM honda. But I dont trust myself to adjust it. Looks like I'll have to bring the car in. Just out of curiosity, what are people paying for a timing belt job? There is about a 1 1/4 '' deflection in the belt.

[johnl]

Well Johnl, You have helped me to figure this out. Car is close, and it feels better, but yes, there is some pretty major slack in the Tbelt . The PO said it had recently been done, and it looks very new, its OEM honda. But I dont trust myself to adjust it. Looks like I'll have to bring the car in. Just out of curiosity, what are people paying for a timing belt job? There is about a 1 1/4 '' deflection in the belt.

That's a lot more than it should be. A slack belt is at significant risk of jumping a tooth (or more). It may be that the belt wasn't installed with the correct tension, or that the nut holding the adjuster pulley wasn't tight enough and the adjuster has slipped. It's very unlikely that the belt has stretched, these belts just don't stretch to any significant degree. I'd also have your mechanic check the balance shaft belt for tightness and correct positioning.