Compound setup

[Warudakumi]

Ok my secret is finally out but here is whats been cooking so far with my CB7.

I've finally located a N.O.S Jackson Racing Supercharger and my future plans is to be the first compound setup CB7. The supercharger will be arriving sometime next week and I can't wait! Some of you may be scratching your heads and wondering WHY? Well why the hell not?! I know I can make ample power alone just running the supercharger or a turbo setup alone but I'm at the point with my CB7 where it's going to end up possibly being just a weekend racer only and I plan on getting a new car for comfort reasons.

My original plan was to just turbocharge my H22a but i've always dreamed the idea of having the best of both worlds. My plan now is to combine this JRSC kit with a turbo to be the first CB running two forms of forced induction. Crazy plans I know but it's time to step it up a little.

I figure i'll play with my current H22a with the stock pulleys for awhile and if it "grenades" oh well. That will give me a reason to put my fully built turbo H22a in. With the compression ratio I have going for it, the bottom end wont give me much power to benefit from the supercharger alone to be "fun" so I'll just take advantage of the higher compression JDM motor to give the compressor some more HP to play with. I will be however utilizing just the built head once the supercharger goes but I'll save the bottom end for it's twincharge future.

The Canadian supercharged H23 CB7 inspired me to buy the kit. I know there will be some minor obstacles to overcome however I want to get these things documented so that everyone has something to go by for a JRSC kit in a CB7.
This will squash the myths and possibly lead to more members going the JRSC route as a form of supercharging any H-series or quite possibly the F22. Once the supercharger arrives, I'll see if I can borrow a F-series manifold to knock one unanswered question about it bolting up and whether or not if the clearance and height is roughly the same.
When I wasn't in a market for the JRSC, I've seen used H22 kits go for just a little over 1k used. Rotrex and other superchargers are far better technology now but I wanted a more simpler semi bolt-in solution.

This is what I have in mind but not as crazy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3moKulpctN0

The main issue i'm worried about is heatsoak since this is by far the biggest issue with these superchargers. I'm entertaining the idea of running water injection or finding a shop besides LHT to make a aftercooler. I know EDYN has experience porting these things and may be able to help me out.

The video I posted above has me wondering where his charge piping is going? I was planning on running the charge pipes in the "usual areas" where the intercooler would be inline and help cool the turbo.

Is there any reason why his charge pipes are going under the supercharger or is there something that i'm missing that makes it so that the charge pipes can't be run in the same turbo fashion when doing the compound setup?

[10thAnnivCB7]

That is so sick. I wonder how much power that thing is putting out.

[toycar]

The video I posted above has me wondering where his charge piping is going? I was planning on running the charge pipes in the "usual areas" where the intercooler would be inline and help cool the turbo.

Is there any reason why his charge pipes are going under the supercharger or is there something that i'm missing that makes it so that the charge pipes can't be run in the same turbo fashion when doing the compound setup?

Best of luck man!!


Cool idea, but far from reliable and absoloutely diving into the deep end

[Raf99]

Ok my secret is finally out but here is whats been cooking so far with my CB7.

I've finally located a N.O.S Jackson Racing Supercharger and my future plans is to be the first compound setup CB7. The supercharger will be arriving sometime next week and I can't wait! Some of you may be scratching your heads and wondering WHY? Well why the hell not?! I know I can make ample power alone just running the supercharger or a turbo setup alone but I'm at the point with my CB7 where it's going to end up possibly being just a weekend racer only and I plan on getting a new car for comfort reasons.

My original plan was to just turbocharge my H22a but i've always dreamed the idea of being twincharged. My plan now is to combine this JRSC kit with a turbo to be the first compound charged CB. Crazy plans I know but it's time to step it up a little.

I figure i'll play with my current H22a with the stock pulleys for awhile and if it "grenades" oh well. That will give me a reason to put my fully built turbo H22a in. With the compression ratio I have going for it, the bottom end wont give me much power to benefit from the supercharger alone to be "fun" so I'll just take advantage of the higher compression JDM motor to give the compressor some more HP to play with. I will be however utilizing just the built head once the supercharger goes but I'll save the bottom end for it's twincharge future.

The Canadian supercharged H23 CB7 inspired me to buy the kit. I know there will be some minor obstacles to overcome however I want to get these things documented so that everyone has something to go by for a JRSC kit in a CB7.
This will squash the myths and possibly lead to more members going the JRSC route as a form of supercharging any H-series or quite possibly the F22. Once the supercharger arrives, I'll see if I can borrow a F-series manifold to knock one unanswered question about it bolting up and whether or not if the clearance and height is roughly the same.
When I wasn't in a market for the JRSC, I've seen used H22 kits go for just a little over 1k used. Rotrex and other superchargers are far better technology now but I wanted a more simpler semi bolt-in solution.

This is what I have in mind but not as crazy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3moKulpctN0

The main issue i'm worried about is heatsoak since this is by far the biggest issue with these superchargers. I'm entertaining the idea of running water injection or finding a shop besides LHT to make a aftercooler. I know EDYN has experience porting these things and may be able to help me out.

The video I posted above has me wondering where his charge piping is going? I was planning on running the charge pipes in the "usual areas" where the intercooler would be inline and help cool the turbo.

Is there any reason why his charge pipes are going under the supercharger or is there something that i'm missing that makes it so that the charge pipes can't be run in the same turbo fashion when doing the compound setup?

I'm no pro, but I believe he has a throttle body with the turbo going into it and then a supercharger on top contributing to the mix. I suspect that there must be some kind of "air war" going on between the two. The supercharger handles low end torque curves while the turbo takes over at a certain RPM and basically forces air in quicker than the supercharger. Quite a confusing setup and I'm not educated enough to know how this would work exactly.
I would think that the turbo would push so much air at one point that it would damage the supercharger? I dunno...

[bigpoppa694lyfe]

The ideal goal with twin charging it to have a proper sized turbo that won't create a bottle neck itself or with the supercharger.

[toycar]

The ideal goal with twin charging it to have a proper sized turbo that won't create a bottle neck itself or with the supercharger.

Theres alot more to it than that.


You can buy a valve and a supercharger with a clutch that makes the supercharger only work at certain rpms, and the valve directs the air like a damper with vac actuation, basically using the supercharger at low rpms and the turbo at higher. This is not an actual compound setup. This would be a twincharged setup/.

Jackson racing makes a kit for some toyotas for twincharging.


You can also use the supercharger for airflow, not pressure. Supercharger feeds turbo in this scenario. Pressure is then made after the compressor.


You can also send compressed air to the turbo, and compress it again. Doing it this way requires extensive planning and a series of BOV's. Its not concidered compound unless you compress already compressed air.

I can think of half a dozen ways to set up something dualcharged/twincharged our whatever you want to call it. Compound charge is different all together.

The hardest part about setting up something like this is managing the surge.

[wed3k]

hit me up about the intake manifold, i have a f22a6/h23 just sitting in my basement if you want to toy with it.

i just helped my buddy with his methanol injection on his thunderbird s/c.

[Warudakumi]

Thanks guys!

Thanks for your input guys! I feel like a dog waiting for the mail-man to come by the house to attack. Any day now it should be coming!!

Theres alot more to it than that.

You can buy a valve and a supercharger with a clutch that makes the supercharger only work at certain rpms, and the valve directs the air like a damper with vac actuation, basically using the supercharger at low rpms and the turbo at higher. This is not an actual compound setup. This would be a twincharged setup/.

Jackson racing makes a kit for some toyotas for twincharging.

You can also use the supercharger for airflow, not pressure. Supercharger feeds turbo in this scenario. Pressure is then made after the compressor.


You can also send compressed air to the turbo, and compress it again. Doing it this way requires extensive planning and a series of BOV's. Its not concidered compound unless you compress already compressed air.

I can think of half a dozen ways to set up something dualcharged/twincharged our whatever you want to call it. Compound charge is different all together.

The hardest part about setting up something like this is managing the surge.

I'm no pro, but I believe he has a throttle body with the turbo going into it and then a supercharger on top contributing to the mix. I suspect that there must be some kind of "air war" going on between the two. The supercharger handles low end torque curves while the turbo takes over at a certain RPM and basically forces air in quicker than the supercharger. Quite a confusing setup and I'm not educated enough to know how this would work exactly.
I would think that the turbo would push so much air at one point that it would damage the supercharger? I dunno...

Don't quote me on this but I think I remember reading that the JRSC has some sort of vacuum activated system that controls the boost along with one free idle pulley? so as long as the there is minimal load it won't activate boost.

I'm still unsure where that guy is running his charge piping because where he has the filter is normally where the metal intake elbow of the kit will go. This is where I was planning on running the intercooler piping like in a normal turbo setup. The guys setup looks intimidating but I wanna see how it runs. I tried following him on the forum he's from but it's in a totally different language. I hope my setup isn't too noisy when it's done at idle. Cops are bored here in the 707.

hit me up about the intake manifold, i have a f22a6/h23 just sitting in my basement if you want to toy with it.

i just helped my buddy with his methanol injection on his thunderbird s/c.

I know I have a F22a6 manifold somewhere but I'll take that offer if I can't find it.

Thanks guys for your input.



This is a compound setup on a Lotus Elise with 680HP. God that sound is SEX! I love hearing the supercharger whine along with the thrash of the turbo BOV's
The USDM Market Lotus Elise is basically running a Celica 1.8 motor.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmscSzFurwg

The ideal goal with twin charging it to have a proper sized turbo that won't create a bottle neck itself or with the supercharger.

Very true. Much like the Lotus in the video, I want the supercharger to take care of the low-end acceleration. The turbo has to be properly sized to take advantage of the highend. I'm thinking maybe I want the turbo to start spooling in the 4.5-5k range. This will split the rev-range almost evenly. 0-4 supercharger 4.5on turbo.

[toycar]

The point of a compound, not twincharged, setup is to use the added air flow of your first compressor, to help power a much larger compressor that you otherwise would not be able to power. The cubic feet per minute of flow is limited to size, stroke, compression and rev speed.


That lotus is using a compound setup.


What you are talking about in your last post is a twincharged setup using one or the other. Jackson Racing does sell a kit for the celica that offers a butterfly valve that is vac actuated, for using either turbo pressure or supercharger pressure.

The supercharger in that particular kit also comes with a clutch, and it is electronically engaged when the valve closes for the supercharger.




So, first things first.

Are you wanting to twincharge something, or compound charge something?


I personally would compound charge with two turbos, like a supra is setup. That is, if I was going to take on some super elaborate build like this.

I the only reason I would do that is to avoid the hassle of getting the belt right for a supercharger.

[bigpoppa694lyfe]

I was going under the assumption he ment to twincharge as soon as I saw he was using a supercharger. When I think of compound charging, I always recall a thread on dsm tuners where a guy had a big 16g feeding a holder I believe... Thing looked pretty nasty and I always thought it would be a sick addition to a built f22.

[Sordz]

Wow that prelude is still around! I remember seeing that 3 years ago on another forum.

I would not do a setup with both kinds of chargers but IF I did it would be this type of setup vs intake mounted supercharger.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=r...&v=5dWbYHPJ7s4

Good luck with the build, will be different and fun

[toycar]

Wow that prelude is still around! I remember seeing that 3 years ago on another forum.

I would not do a setup with both kinds of chargers but IF I did it would be this type of setup vs intake mounted supercharger.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=r...&v=5dWbYHPJ7s4

Good luck with the build, will be different and fun

I agree

[Warudakumi]

Thanks for your input guys.

Maybe I have the theory wrong but I thought compound charging generically meant using "two different forms of forced induction " on one engine. I was watching some more videos on youtube and even saw a Shelby Twin-Turbo with the oem supercharger intact.....so what would that configuration be called?

I have an idea what sequential twin-turbo configuration does and this is what I thought the benefit of having a supercharger (handle low-end and fast acceleration) and then also the turbo itself to give it the extra kick where the supercharger runs out of breath?

In a sense, this is how a Toyota Twin Turbo's sequential system works. smaller turbo working together with a slightly bigger turbo.Depending on load the larger turbo activates to help on acceleration to reduce lag.


I think I remember seeing that civic before or something similar on another forum! Honestly if I had the money to create a manifold that would accept a sequential setup and run like a factory Toyota Supra TT then I wouldn't have gotten the Jackson Charger.

The whole goal is to squash myths with the kit in the CB7 and also see if it's possible if it will mount correctly to a F22 manifold. The compound or twincharge setup will be the ultimate goal once all the needed research is done.

I'll draw pictures later or this weekend on how I want the setup to be routed. At this point i'm kinda questioning if it even will work the way i'm visualizing it?

[wildBill83]

I doubt a shade tree mechanic will be able to pull off what you are talking about safely or reliably. Just my .02, but don't let that discourage you.

[Warudakumi]

I don't plan on it

I doubt a shade tree mechanic will be able to pull off what you are talking about safely or reliably. Just my .02, but don't let that discourage you.

I plan on taking my car to Blacktrax for this future build once i'm done fooling around with just the supercharger alone. They are one of the best if not THE BEST IMO in Northern California as far as custom tuning shops go. I've seen some wicked Toyotas,Nissans and of course Hondas come out of that shop however they work with any platform and even domestic muscle.

They recently did a twincharged MR2 so a one off or bizarre project is not anything foreign to them. You pay them for their time and they never disappoint. Jei with his great tuning and building abilities and Aki with his mad fabrication skills I see a bright future for my accord.

http://btprojects.blogspot.com/2011/...aw11.html#more

The most memorable project many of you might remember was the LS1 swapped 300zx that was featured in the Ultimate Street Car Challenge 07.

The Blacktrax team are in no way an average mom n pops garage shop and I don't trust anyone else working on my car but them. They have worked on my previous 1992 Accord and my current 1993. I feel that once you have a personal mechanic, it's always good to take it to the same person because they know your car and it's history already.