owequitit : 1990 Accord EX

[owequitit]

nice updates scott. pics?

and youve supported my findings about the no-weld 5spd conversion. unfortunately we arent lucky enough to be able to drill a new hole in the tranny mount bracket, like the 5th gen accord people can. when retaining power steering, it makes the belt awefully close to the side of the bay, close enough that in some cases the belt may slightly rub one of the creases near the mount bracket. it was fixed by making some modifications to the tranny mount, and also loosening and readjusting the rest of the mounts.

looking forward to seeing this thing complete!

btw how accurate are your 1/2" and 1/4" measurements? this is what i had come up with based on my own measurements, but its hard to be too accurate with a ruler and tape measure. the adjustment distance should be the same as the difference in the new drill location on the 5th gens. either way, a prelude mount with the center sleeve moved to this location would make it just about drop right in:

[img]http://www.****.com/pics/conversionmount.jpg[/img]

Well, I think due to the spacers, it is sitting low enough that the belt isn't an issue. It has OEM clearance all the way around, and sits in the same plane that the stock one did. The pulley has the same clearance that it did, and the belt is no where near touching anything. Believe me, that was one of the first things I checked! Gotta have the accessories! LOL! The AC compressor also has plenty of clearance.

I am going to measure the length of the axles installed and see what I have there too.

Your measurement is close, but not quite dead on.

Once the modification is complete, the two holes will actually be siamesed a little bit.



The original hole is approximately located by the green circle, and the blue one would indicate the Prelude hole obviously.

Haveing the spacers on or off didn't seem to make much of a difference, and this was as measured with the engine in the car.

There is probably some adjustment in the mounts, but this is pretty much where it wants to sit.

Now here is my current issue with the no weld method.

Once that hole is siamesed, a lot of the bracket structure that the bolt relies on for support is gone. The same goes for the back side. In the end, I will probably end up with 2 steel plates, one welded over each siamesed hole, with the correct hole drilled through them. So now we have involved some welding, which sort of defeats the purpose. Although, admittedly, those two plates require less welding and less structural strength.

I will make a final decision when I am done.

The pluses of the no weld method are as follows.

1)The Prelude mount is beefier by virtue of the fact it was designed for the torque. And it is beefy! It was pushing the other 3 mounts much more than they were pushing it.

2)Geometrically from a support stand point, it makes more sense to me because the mount is located closer to the centerline of the tranny, which probably reduces torque forces on the mount slightly. The fact that it is taller overall may negate this somewhat though. I wouldn't know without doing math, and that isn't important, because there is more than enough
strength both ways.

3) When used in conjunction with the spacers on the driver's side, the axles should be a little more parallel with the ground. This can aid torque steer, at the minor cost of ground clearance. The header should still tuck up above the cross bar though. I roughly measured the angle of the axles before I pulled the engine, so we wills see what happens when I put it back on the ground.

All in all, it is a tossup at this point. I will reserve judgement until it is done, but both methods are probably a wash. If you have all of the Accord 5 speed stuff, then it is probably wise to replace the bracket.

I didn't have the mounts and was having a hard time find the brackets etc. So I decided to investigate this further. Our conversation a long time ago made me wonder again, so here we are.

Interestingly, like I said, it wasn't until I got the tape out that we found the slight difference, and it doesn't seem to be enough to break things. In fact the difference is less than what you would experience with a broken dogbone mount.

Will you do me a favor and take a picture of your engine from the driver's side shock tower, looking down?

I am basically trying to see how much room you have between the valve cover and the shock tower. I am pretty sure i am sitting in the right spot though.

Thanks!

If I could work on it more than just a little bit on the weekends, it would have been done by now!

It is driving me crazy! I want to drive it so bad.

[cp[mike]]

ive only used this method for other peoples cars, never my own, so i dont have a car nearby to measure.

the power steering belt issue is something that came up on a friends car, bluepearldreamz. proper driver side spacers were used, everything was "correct" yet it still rubbed (like... by 1/16") . some time with a drill and grinder and we managed to get the mount sleeve moved by 1/4" in the two desired directions. it helped enough to make everything fit again.

the thing that makes me not feel uncomfortable using this method, though, is that the differences are so slight. even a 1/2" difference in two axes on the tranny mount is hardly noticable in an overall scale, as it would only add a slight tilt to a motor thats a couple feet long, anchored/pivoted at the far end (driver mount). after the front mount is squeezed in and the driver mount spaced, while all the mounts are stressed, everything is ALMOST centered, enough to not cause any visible or mechanical issues.

like you said, a broken front mount causes the engine to sit lower than this conversion would.

and ive noticed that lude mount is one stiff sonofabitch. itll easily stretch the other mounts, without moving itself.

one thing to look out for is that theres not much room between the outside edge of the mount and the frame rail... attempting to create a new mount hole in the bracket may put that too close, or touching.

[owequitit]

ive only used this method for other peoples cars, never my own, so i dont have a car nearby to measure.

the power steering belt issue is something that came up on a friends car, bluepearldreamz. proper driver side spacers were used, everything was "correct" yet it still rubbed (like... by 1/16") . some time with a drill and grinder and we managed to get the mount sleeve moved by 1/4" in the two desired directions. it helped enough to make everything fit again.

the thing that makes me not feel uncomfortable using this method, though, is that the differences are so slight. even a 1/2" difference in two axes on the tranny mount is hardly noticable in an overall scale, as it would only add a slight tilt to a motor thats a couple feet long, anchored/pivoted at the far end (driver mount). after the front mount is squeezed in and the driver mount spaced, while all the mounts are stressed, everything is ALMOST centered, enough to not cause any visible or mechanical issues.

like you said, a broken front mount causes the engine to sit lower than this conversion would.

and ive noticed that lude mount is one stiff sonofabitch. itll easily stretch the other mounts, without moving itself.

one thing to look out for is that theres not much room between the outside edge of the mount and the frame rail... attempting to create a new mount hole in the bracket may put that too close, or touching.

Hmmm. That is weird, my belts all clear fine.

I wonder why.... I will have to go back and look at that too, because I can see plenty of air between them. Did he by chance have an underdrive pulley, or use the Accord PS pump? I could see a larger diameter pulley causing an issue, but with the Prelude pump it is fine.

And yes, the 1/2" in the grand scale isn't noticable at all. You have to look for it and pretty much measure it to see the difference.

As far as moving the hole goes, with everything lined up where the new hole should be, everything fits fine. It doesn't contact the frame rail bracket at all, even with where it is going to be sitting. It is close, but not touching.

If you pull the tranny mount bolt out, and let the other three position themselves, everything has plenty of clearance, so I am not to worried about that. The only thing is that the A/C lines want to touch that stupid hat thing on top of the mount (what the hell is that for anyway? ). Nothing a little negotiating won't fix though.

And actually, I was looking for pics of your car. I wanted to see where one with the frame rail bracket replaced was sitting. That way I can compare no weld position, with weld/stock position.

Thanks for your input, I will look at the belt clearance Saturday.

[cp[mike]]

good call on the pulley diameter. hes using the accord pump, which is held up a bit, with a larger pulley, which would cause the top half of the belt to be held closer to where it rubbed.

anyway heres a couple of pictures i made a while ago (when i first was swapping from my first LX sedan to my EX sedan). i marked them comparing them to the bolt hole closest to the bracket. unfortunately i didnt actually measure it, just took the pictures. hopefully this helps ill snap a picture of the driver side spacing, but be aware that i dont have power steering or a crank pulley that has a row for it, so it may be hard to judge in comparison...

5spd bracket - the center of the front flange of the chassis bracket lines up with the screw hole, with the top of the bracket flush with the top of the frame rail.

[img]http://www.****.com/www/5spdbracket.jpg[/img]


auto bracket - sits further back towards the firewall, and obviously sits much higher. the --> marks the center of the flange, you can see how far back it is compared to the screw hole (and 5spd bracket)

[img]http://www.****.com/www/autobracket.jpg[/img]

[owequitit]

good call on the pulley diameter. hes using the accord pump, which is held up a bit, with a larger pulley, which would cause the top half of the belt to be held closer to where it rubbed.

anyway heres a couple of pictures i made a while ago (when i first was swapping from my first LX sedan to my EX sedan). i marked them comparing them to the bolt hole closest to the bracket. unfortunately i didnt actually measure it, just took the pictures. hopefully this helps ill snap a picture of the driver side spacing, but be aware that i dont have power steering or a crank pulley that has a row for it, so it may be hard to judge in comparison...

5spd bracket - the center of the front flange of the chassis bracket lines up with the screw hole, with the top of the bracket flush with the top of the frame rail.

[img]http://www.****.com/www/5spdbracket.jpg[/img]


auto bracket - sits further back towards the firewall, and obviously sits much higher. the --> marks the center of the flange, you can see how far back it is compared to the screw hole (and 5spd bracket)

[img]http://www.****.com/www/autobracket.jpg[/img]

The base of the 94-97 accord/Prelude mount offsets the mount by the same amount that the frame brackets are off though, so with a prelude mount, and an auto accord bracket, everything lines up front to back, just like it would with an Accord manual mount and bracket...

The only difference is the bolt hole on the auto that needs to move to about right here (green circle):



Coinicidentally, with every mount set and bolted, except the tranny mount, it wants to sit right there.

Since the other 3 mounting points are all correct mounting points for the Accord, then the 4th point must be correct. The hole just needs to move a scoshe.

Oddly, or luckily, the OEM hole is far enough forward on the bracket that the hole can still be moved toward the frame and up a little bit and the mount still clears the framrail side of the bracket with ease.

I was more curious about the spacing between the timing belt side of the valve cover and and the left shock tower.

I know it is sitting straight and correct front to back, but I wanted to double check left to right, although with the other 3 mounts lined up correctly, I have a high degree of confidence that it is fine.

Just paranoia I guess.

[cp[mike]]

look familiar? 5th gen conversion.



now im curious, are you planning on redrilling the frame bracket? have you noticed the very thick backside? i guess if you managed to drill all the way through it, a longer bolt with a nut on the end would work.

[owequitit]

look familiar? 5th gen conversion.



now im curious, are you planning on redrilling the frame bracket? have you noticed the very thick backside? i guess if you managed to drill all the way through it, a longer bolt with a nut on the end would work.

LOL! Yeah, that looks death defyingly familiar! That is where my new hole would have to be located without the spacers on the driver's side.

If you take that hole and lower it straight down 3/8ths of an inch, you will see how the two holes end up siamesed.

And yes I saw the back plate. It is actually a stamped peice of steal that seems to be shaped like a sidways U, ie, it is not completely solid.

It is tack welded in 3 places, and seems to have the threaded part welded to the inside between the two halfs of the bracket.

No worries, I have a big titanium drill bit and a very large DeWalt that will have no trouble with that bracket!

LOL!

and yes, the stock tranny through bolt is plenty long to get it through the bracket and then to put a nut on. There is actually about 1-1.5" of thread that come out of the side.

I will try to take some pics, of the process and how I actually fix it long term.

[Prez808]

Car looks great!

[texasvtak]

Woohooooo H22! I used the Prelude/CD tranny mount with the 3/8in spacers too... my only issue is that my ac compressor bangs on the front crossmember at certain rpms when Im getting on it.. Any thoughts since you seem to have done more than a fair share of research?

[owequitit]

Car looks great!

Thanks! Should be up and running on its own this weekend.

I don't know if I am going to be able to get home to this weekend though.

It is supposed to start snowing tomorrow, and the roads were already very icy last weekend. If it gets bad enough, I will just wait.

[owequitit]

Woohooooo H22! I used the Prelude/CD tranny mount with the 3/8in spacers too... my only issue is that my ac compressor bangs on the front crossmember at certain rpms when Im getting on it.. Any thoughts since you seem to have done more than a fair share of research?

I have both torque mount inserts, so I don't think it can move enough to hit the crossmember.

I can very easily get my fingers in between the compressor and the crossmember, and there is almost no movement from the engine, so I think I will be ok.

If not, then the engine is going to go back up to its original height, which will require some additional welding on the tranny bracket.

[Shaun]

Hey its nice to know that you made it home safely......oh well I know where I could have bought a 90 accord with an H for cheap....

Ok in all seriousness I found a 93 SE in good shape for a good price. I wish I could pick it up. But whatever, so the next best thing, get down here so we can finish your CB.

[owequitit]

Hey its nice to know that you made it home safely......oh well I know where I could have bought a 90 accord with an H for cheap....

Ok in all seriousness I found a 93 SE in good shape for a good price. I wish I could pick it up. But whatever, so the next best thing, get down here so we can finish your CB.

LOL!

How the hell did you get out of your playpen NOOOB! LOL!

I am trying to come down tomorrow, but if it snows, I don't think I will be able to. The roads were icy enough last weekend, and if it actually snows a lot, they will be worse.

I will call you tomorrow and let you know though.

[Turbo Dave]

wut r u gonna do with that aluminum gauge bezel?

[owequitit]

wut r u gonna do with that aluminum gauge bezel?

I am not sure yet. It will eventually be coming out, but I don't know when.