owequitit : 1990 Accord EX

[owequitit]

ICK. Just priced all door seals, window channels, and other various rubber parts as well as a few other items that need replaced, and it came to $1600. FROM MAJESTIC Honda. I looked at TAS Auto too, and they were more.

Hmmm.

[owequitit]

Some useful information on US Composites 8lb density foam:

http://www.uscomposites.com/foam.html

I suppose that ideally you COULD use the 16lb density stuff, but I wonder how that would work in this application.

Not a bad promise for $62 or so though.

[mj213]

I used to have a Neuspeed up front. I had to remove it when I swapped my car, so yes, I KNOW that I will love this bar.

What are you up to out there?

Not too much. With the new wheels they are rubbing when I take any turns. Kind of scary because it sounds like metal on metal as opposed to tires rubbing. I can't find any signs of it wearing or anything, so it's really baffling.

My friend said he had the rear strut tower bar on and it made his rear end a little too tight, causing some understeer (aka rear end breaking loose). But, I'm not certain the bar was the cause. It doesn't matter for me at the moment, with the mysterious rubbing noise, my axles in need of replacement, and god knows what else is acting up I won't be worrying about one any time soon.

[owequitit]

Not too much. With the new wheels they are rubbing when I take any turns. Kind of scary because it sounds like metal on metal as opposed to tires rubbing. I can't find any signs of it wearing or anything, so it's really baffling.

My friend said he had the rear strut tower bar on and it made his rear end a little too tight, causing some understeer (aka rear end breaking loose). But, I'm not certain the bar was the cause. It doesn't matter for me at the moment, with the mysterious rubbing noise, my axles in need of replacement, and god knows what else is acting up I won't be worrying about one any time soon.

Less understeer here, but that is not to say he had the same results with his setup. Even if there, was, the added stiffness is still worth it, because even if there was some additional understeer, it can be dialed out in other ways.

[owequitit]

Not too much. With the new wheels they are rubbing when I take any turns. Kind of scary because it sounds like metal on metal as opposed to tires rubbing. I can't find any signs of it wearing or anything, so it's really baffling.

My friend said he had the rear strut tower bar on and it made his rear end a little too tight, causing some understeer (aka rear end breaking loose). But, I'm not certain the bar was the cause. It doesn't matter for me at the moment, with the mysterious rubbing noise, my axles in need of replacement, and god knows what else is acting up I won't be worrying about one any time soon.

P.S. I meant what were you up to out at Riddle?

[mj213]

P.S. I meant what were you up to out at Riddle?

Oh, yeah.. lol

Replacing computer parts for customers. Going out there again in the next day or so.

[owequitit]

Installed the ESP front strut tower bar.

Overall, and awesome product, although I will talk ESP.net about some revisions I think might make it more install friendly.

The product was extremely well made, is VERY stiff, but bolts on with very little effort. It was far easier to install than the Neuspeed, which had to be flexed in order to get on. And that wasn't easy. This one needed some minor convincing with a hammer and a rag, but it pretty much just went right on.

The stiffness added is amazing. This one didn't feel like it made the same structural improvement that the rear did, but it made the steering feel SOOO much better. It is more responsive, more predictable, has better feel and feed back and is more natural.

Overall, suspension wise, both tower bars are worth their weight in gold. The car feels so much better I almost can't even describe it. It feels like 1 car now, and not to halfs with a jiggly middle. There is still some very minor quiver through the door area, but I am going to put expanding polyfoam in there to take care of that. I think once I do that, it will take care of any rigidity issues. The car already rides a ton better due to the bars, and there are fewer minor squeeks and rattles.

I can't wait to see how the foam helps.

I would have posted pictures, but my digicam is being dumb and won't work, so that will just have to wait. I will also report back when I have had a chance to take it driving on hilly roads, although I can already tell it will be superb.

I am going to do the foam, finish the rear bushings/camber kit, and then I can play with alignment settings to see what works the best.

[The G-Man]

I wish I could get the ESP bars, but adding them would put me in a higher class in auto-x.
Maybe I can get them to make custom 2 pt. bars?

Where exactly will you be putting expanding foam?

[owequitit]

I wish I could get the ESP bars, but adding them would put me in a higher class in auto-x.
Maybe I can get them to make custom 2 pt. bars?

Where exactly will you be putting expanding foam?

They already make 2 point bars front and rear. I got the 3 point front and 2 point rear, and they also DO make the 2 point front. The part of the firewall that it reinforces isn't all that thick, so I imagine you would get most of the benefit from a 2 point. The 2 point rear made a huge difference.

As for the expanding foam, you put it in the framerails. You want to make sure you get the 8lb density stuff used for marine applications.

SCC has done it to a couple of cars, with nothing but positives to say about it. They got it from US Composites. The downside is that you have to mix and pour it, and there is a very limited amount of time to work with it. As such, without a rotisserie or some creative engineering, there is no way to get it up into the A,B and C pillars. Most of the benefit will come from putting it in the door sills etc, but ideally you would want it at the structural corners of the pillars too. Since you can't really pour it where you want it, they used the 2lb stuff for that application, which is a lot less dense, but can be sprayed in and does add some stiffness. I was trying to think of a way to put the 2lb stuff in to create a "bottom" so that you could pour the 8lb stuff into the pillars. If I figure something out, I will let you know.

[owequitit]

Drove the usual route today. BIG difference. Not hardcore handling, but enough to know that the car is very noticeably better with the addition of the bars.

It is also less prone to crosswinds, which is something I also noticed with the Neuspeed.

[Losiracer2]

you said you noticed a stiffer feeling in the rear when that bar was mounted....how does that compare to the feeling of adding an ST or Progress bar? Or am I totally confused and it isn't even in the same league? I'm thinking about the 2pt front for now, or maybe the 3 pt.

[owequitit]

you said you noticed a stiffer feeling in the rear when that bar was mounted....how does that compare to the feeling of adding an ST or Progress bar? Or am I totally confused and it isn't even in the same league? I'm thinking about the 2pt front for now, or maybe the 3 pt.

Well, let's put it this way. With both bars on, if I jack up the driver's side corner, the driver's side rear comes off the ground too, and the passenger's side front raises up. Not something it would have done previously. The car would have had enough flex in the chassis that the rear would stay on the ground, and the doors would become harder to open because the frame was not longer aligned and was instead slightly "bent" or deformed.

Also, the function is totally different than the rear sway bar swap, whose purpose is to create less body roll and reduce rear understeer by limiting the amount of weight transfer and independent suspension movement. The strut bars are more for stuctural stiffness, which gives the car a better ride, and more secure, competent, predictable handling, because the suspension mounting points aren't bending and flexing as much in relation to each other. By keeping the chassis flex to a minimum, the suspension spends more of its travel offsetting the road conditions and handling demands vs compensating for the chassis' movement at the same time. This leads to livelier steering, better handling and fewer squeaks and rattles etc.

Overall, with my 195/65-15 winter tires, this car handles superbly. I suspect that once I finish my suspension setup, it will handle extrememly neutrally.

If you have suspension mods, and are serious about actual handling prowess, I highly recommend a set of stiff strut bars like these. Absolutely worth the money and those cheap pivot point ebay bars won't hold a candle to these.

**EDIT** Did an experiment today and actually lifted the driver's side of the car from the front jack point. All doors open normally, with no effect whatsoever on the driver's door. The rear door was a little harder to get unlatched, but closed and opened with more or less normal force. Hopefully, when I do the foam, all doors with open and close normally with the chassis under significant bending load.

[Losiracer2]

Well, let's put it this way. With both bars on, if I jack up the driver's side corner, the driver's side rear comes off the ground too, and the driver's side front raises up. Not something it would have done previously. The car would have had enough flex in the chassis that the rear would stay on the ground, and the doors would become harder to open because the frame was not longer aligned and was instead slightly "bent" or deformed.

Also, the function is totally different than the rear sway bar swap, whose purpose is to create less body roll and reduce rear understeer by limiting the amount of weight transfer and independent suspension movement. The strut bars are more for stuctural stiffness, which gives the car a better ride, and more secure, competent, predictable handling, because the suspension mounting points aren't bending and flexing as much in relation to each other. By keeping the chassis flex to a minimum, the suspension spends more of its travel offsetting the road conditions and handling demands vs compensating for the chassis' movement at the same time. This leads to livelier steering, better handling and fewer squeaks and rattles etc.

Overall, with my 195/65-15 winter tires, this car handles superbly. I suspect that once I finish my suspension setup, it will handle extrememly neutrally.

If you have suspension mods, and are serious about actual handling prowess, I highly recommend a set of stiff strut bars like these. Absolutely worth the money and those cheap pivot point ebay bars won't hold a candle to these.

I DO want to get rid of those squeaks and rattles...I'll def. look into those ESP bars, since them and bisi are the only ones still dedicating their time into our platforms.

off topic, I just got a mugen reservoir sock at that ICB Motorsport place in Chandler. Genuine sock at a genuine price...but it is good quality, fits perfectly around the reservoir. Have you ever been there? they've got a lot of JDM parts.

[owequitit]

I DO want to get rid of those squeaks and rattles...I'll def. look into those ESP bars, since them and bisi are the only ones still dedicating their time into our platforms.

off topic, I just got a mugen reservoir sock at that ICB Motorsport place in Chandler. Genuine sock at a genuine price...but it is good quality, fits perfectly around the reservoir. Have you ever been there? they've got a lot of JDM parts.

I think I have been there once. Lots of nice stuff.

[owequitit]

Here is a good one.

I have a vacuum leak somewhere, apparently. But, using all of the traditional tricks, I can't find it. I felt, listened and sprayed carb cleaner everywhere in along the intake tract and nothing noticeable.

I KNOW it has a vacuum leak because if I change the vacuum load on it, it stops momentarily, and it surges like 25-50 RPM up and down up and down. You can barely see it on the tach, but you can HEAR it. It does not surge in open loop mode.

Also, if I completely cover the IACV port on the TB, it still runs. The IACV is drawing air, but not as much as is typical of an engine idling, as that port usually has a very strong vacuum on it. Now it is there, but it isn't very strong. If I completely cover the TB, so that air can't get in, it still runs. The confusing part is that any vacuum leak bad enough to be able to idle the engine, ought to be pretty detectable, and yet, I get nothing. Checked the IM gasket, the TB gasket, the IACV gasket, the plenum gasket, and all lines and fittings. I blocked off the FITV, with no luck either.

Here is the only other clue I have. If you pull the PCV valve and block it with my finger, the idle returns to normal. The valve has been replaced twice recently, with no positive or negative effect.

Any ideas?