Contemplating my next car (to replace the Fit.)

[Macaqueistrong]

Alright so I lied.....

Pontiac Solstice, Saturn Sky.

[lucifer1]

Alright so I lied.....

Pontiac Solstice, Saturn Sky.

I always liked those.

[ambientwater]

Porsche 944
or a 914 <- hard to find
1995 MR2 Turbo T Top 200hp i believe ,I had a friend that had one i loved it. My friends same a pictured below , also had leather

[deevergote]

Those would all be major projects, unless by some miracle I found a restored one. I love the W20 MR2, but it's really quite old. The 944 is also ancient, and not cheap (though cheaper than a 911, for sure!) The 914 is nearly impossible to find clean. Those things rust if you sneeze on them!

I think the best one on your list is the mr-s. I always loved those with the veilside kit on them.

The z3 would be next . Bmw requires quite a bit of maintenance but most parts are not so badly priced. Engine is pretty easy to work on. Much easier than I originally thought.

My Honda bias would say s2000 hounds down no other choice. Reality is I don't think they are worth the money or hype. Plus half of the ones I see nowadays are riced out stance cars.

That's something I don't like about the S2000. Many are beat, and the "culture" surrounding them isn't much different than that surrounding old beater Civics and Accords. I love CB7tuner, but we're a rarity. Granted, i'm sure I'd find that anywhere. I'm just tired of the Honda flavor of it!

Alright so I lied.....

Pontiac Solstice, Saturn Sky.

I really do like the Sky. Downside is that I've had nothing but AWFUL experiences with GM products (my CTS-V is currently in need of about $1000 worth of repairs to get back on the road!)

[Tishock]

[AccordWarrior]

How far are you willing to strip things down? Some of those choices can be made much lighter if you're willing to give up some things here or there.

Early Miatas may not work simply because you may not fit. My feet didn't fit in the 2nd generation model and I'm not particularly tall, although I do have big feet. I loved the most recent generation though. I much preferred it to the RX-8 driving them back to back.

You know my thoughts on the MR2. Maybe they're great cars, but they're just SO ugly IMHO. I think that's what I can't get past more than anything.

Find a Fiat X-1/9 and put a K20 in it.

[owequitit]

That's pretty much what I figured with the S2000, and those are basically my reasons for having it so high on my list. I didn't know there was such a difference between the models! I'm definitely going to drive the S2000, MR2, and Miata(s) to really make up my mind. Chances are, it's going to come down to one of those three. I think the main thing against the S2000 (on paper, anyway) is the weight. The lightest S2000 is more than 500lbs heavier than the MR2 or early Miata. I'd need to get behind the wheel to truly decide if that matters or not, however.



The MR2 is actually the 2nd lightest car on the list, if the 1st gen Miata is taken into consideration. It only weighs 2200lbs (2nd and 3rd gen Miatas are heavier by 100-300lbs at least.)

But look at it this way. That weight went somewhere, and in the case of the S2K, the majority of it went to all the right places.

Versus the MR2, it has a stiffer chassis, more room, and 110 more HP. That will MORE than offset any weight problem. It has bigger brakes, better aero and IIRC, the MR2 didn't have a power top. It also has bigger wheels, wider tires, an extra cog in the tranny, and an LSD. All of which weight. Plus, you still get good quality leather, an OK trunk, a little bit of storage in the interior and a 9,000RPM redline. Or 8,000 if you go AP2, but quite a bit more torque, and lower gearing). The AP2 was also actually under-rated, as it makes about 20 more HP on a dyno than the AP1.

It has razor sharp steering, amazing brakes and one of the stiffest convertible chassis ever made. And they are already starting to be collector's cars. That is a car that in 10 years or less will start to appreciate and be seen more frequently at shows, just as the NSX has done (and many said it never would).

Plus, to be honest, you have never had the chance to truly enjoy life with a completely stock, trouble free, high revving VTEC Honda that isn't a project, doesn't have headaches, etc.

The best part, is you can find a GREAT shape AP1 for that kind of money. AP2s will be a little harder to come by at $15K, but if you shop around, and are willing to travel a little bit to get it, I am sure you could find a decently mint one for that money. And then just drive and polish it. It's also the one Honda that nobody really makes fun of (not that it is a factor).

As for AP2 versus AP1, yes, there were fairly substantial differences. The AP2 started in 2004. It had the 2.2L instead of the 2.0. Lower redline, more torque, lower gearing. They are ultimately easier to live with than the 2.0 but IMO, not any more "special" character wise than the K20Z3 in the Si. They are more powerful, and faster, but the character is less. But, you get bigger wheels, revised front and rear bumpers (with the oval exhaust), bigger wheels with wider tires, and they pretty heavily revised the rear suspension. The AP1 is a razor blade. Absolutely fantastic in the hands of the right driver, but a little bit unforgiving if you cross the line, especially in the wet. As a result of that, Honda softened the bushings and made a few geometry changes to the rear end in 2004 to make the car more predictable. The downside was that some of the scalpel was dulled a bit. It would also likely be a little more tolerable in the ride department. My time in an AP2 was fairly brief, but it was certainly a decent cruiser that would still tear up a back road if you wanted it to. Plenty fast, sounded great, looked awesome, comfortable, good driver interface, etc. It just hits a lot of buttons like few cars do. And THE best MT you will ever have the pleasure of driving. That car DEFINES what a shifter SHOULD feel like. The AP2 also had a few durability changes made to it, in that they beefed up the rear end, and I think the clutch. It also received a glass window at some point, instead of the plastic one in the AP2 (not sure if it was 2004 though). It's also still sub-3,000 lbs, so it doesn't qualify as heavy. Check out wikipedia's info. It is accurate.

Also, it doesn't happen often, but a Laguna Blue Pearl AP2 gives me a woody.

[TheFunk]

I've never personally driven any of these cars, but with the amount of miles you're going to put on it I'd go for whatever is the most enjoyable to drive but without sacrificing reliability.

The Miata or S2K seem like they'd be easiest to work on and find parts for, and they're both notorious for being fun to drive.

[deevergote]

Who needs money when you can just trade a car for your testicles?

I was just joking earlier about how nobody suggested the convertible Smart!
Now, if I could have THIS... I'd be seriously considering it!

How far are you willing to strip things down? Some of those choices can be made much lighter if you're willing to give up some things here or there.

Early Miatas may not work simply because you may not fit. My feet didn't fit in the 2nd generation model and I'm not particularly tall, although I do have big feet. I loved the most recent generation though. I much preferred it to the RX-8 driving them back to back.

You know my thoughts on the MR2. Maybe they're great cars, but they're just SO ugly IMHO. I think that's what I can't get past more than anything.

Find a Fiat X-1/9 and put a K20 in it.

I like the styling of the MR2. It has grown on me!

As for the Miata, I had no problem working the pedals in the new one at the auto show, even in my Doc Martens... so that gives me hope.

But look at it this way. That weight went somewhere, and in the case of the S2K, the majority of it went to all the right places.

Versus the MR2, it has a stiffer chassis, more room, and 110 more HP. That will MORE than offset any weight problem. It has bigger brakes, better aero and IIRC, the MR2 didn't have a power top. It also has bigger wheels, wider tires, an extra cog in the tranny, and an LSD. All of which weight. Plus, you still get good quality leather, an OK trunk, a little bit of storage in the interior and a 9,000RPM redline. Or 8,000 if you go AP2, but quite a bit more torque, and lower gearing). The AP2 was also actually under-rated, as it makes about 20 more HP on a dyno than the AP1.

It has razor sharp steering, amazing brakes and one of the stiffest convertible chassis ever made. And they are already starting to be collector's cars. That is a car that in 10 years or less will start to appreciate and be seen more frequently at shows, just as the NSX has done (and many said it never would).

Plus, to be honest, you have never had the chance to truly enjoy life with a completely stock, trouble free, high revving VTEC Honda that isn't a project, doesn't have headaches, etc.

The best part, is you can find a GREAT shape AP1 for that kind of money. AP2s will be a little harder to come by at $15K, but if you shop around, and are willing to travel a little bit to get it, I am sure you could find a decently mint one for that money. And then just drive and polish it. It's also the one Honda that nobody really makes fun of (not that it is a factor).

As for AP2 versus AP1, yes, there were fairly substantial differences. The AP2 started in 2004. It had the 2.2L instead of the 2.0. Lower redline, more torque, lower gearing. They are ultimately easier to live with than the 2.0 but IMO, not any more "special" character wise than the K20Z3 in the Si. They are more powerful, and faster, but the character is less. But, you get bigger wheels, revised front and rear bumpers (with the oval exhaust), bigger wheels with wider tires, and they pretty heavily revised the rear suspension. The AP1 is a razor blade. Absolutely fantastic in the hands of the right driver, but a little bit unforgiving if you cross the line, especially in the wet. As a result of that, Honda softened the bushings and made a few geometry changes to the rear end in 2004 to make the car more predictable. The downside was that some of the scalpel was dulled a bit. It would also likely be a little more tolerable in the ride department. My time in an AP2 was fairly brief, but it was certainly a decent cruiser that would still tear up a back road if you wanted it to. Plenty fast, sounded great, looked awesome, comfortable, good driver interface, etc. It just hits a lot of buttons like few cars do. And THE best MT you will ever have the pleasure of driving. That car DEFINES what a shifter SHOULD feel like. The AP2 also had a few durability changes made to it, in that they beefed up the rear end, and I think the clutch. It also received a glass window at some point, instead of the plastic one in the AP2 (not sure if it was 2004 though). It's also still sub-3,000 lbs, so it doesn't qualify as heavy. Check out wikipedia's info. It is accurate.

Also, it doesn't happen often, but a Laguna Blue Pearl AP2 gives me a woody.

That is very true. I think much of the weight issue isn't the power to weight ratio (as my 3800lb CTS-V has 3x the power of the MR2 and less than twice the weight...) It's more that I want a low-slung car that I can have fun chucking around. Something about a 2100-2200lb car appeals to me more than something that weighs as much or more than my CB7.
Skidpad results that I've found do show the S2000 to perform better by .02g than the MR2, though I couldn't find any reports from the same sources. I also found that the 2nd gen Miata apparently was .02g over the S2000. I'd like to find comparable road tests from the same publication for the MR2, Miata, and S2000.


Regardless, I'm not going to be racing whatever I get, so I'll likely never really see the limits.


Right now, the Miata is holding strong on overall value (it's affordable, but likely to hold onto much of its value as years pass), overall performance, and availability of damn near everything I'm looking for. If I get a 20th century Miata, it only requires 87 octane. It's really only lacking that "special" feeling.

The S2000 holds strong because it's the most powerful, possibly the most valuable (though it will never be on par with the NSX... it's just too common for that), and I'll admit that the screaming engine and standard LSD are appealing. What I don't like is the higher price for most repairs, the need for premium fuel (that would mean all 3 of my cars require premium!), and as stupid as it sounds... I kinda want to get away from Honda for a bit! Also, the hard top I could get for it is pretty fugly. Still, it is to be considered. The good outweighs the bad.

The MR2 appeals to me because it's less common than the Miata or S2000, it's affordable, it runs on 87 octane fuel, and it's a mid-engine car (which I think would be cool to have.) It's the closest thing I can get to the Lotus that i wanted. The downside is that I HAVE to get one that is more than a decade old, working on the MR engine could be a pain in the ass, and I've never really had a great love of Toyota.

Honestly, at this point, it's these three that I'm wrestling with the most. It'll definitely come down to the driving experience, I think!

[sonikaccord]

It's a little heavy, but it would catch people off guard. It doesn't fit in any of the categories you mentioned, but deserves a shout out. It was posted for 3500 but he upped the price.
http://atlanta.craigslist.org/sat/cto/4881013577.html

[af_1132]

Deev, what about the 2ng gen Mazdaspeed? That tops the Miata charts for me!

Not too many color options, but it looks like it's super fun to drive, just hard to find.

[owequitit]

Who needs money when you can just trade a car for your testicles?

I was just joking earlier about how nobody suggested the convertible Smart!
Now, if I could have THIS... I'd be seriously considering it!



I like the styling of the MR2. It has grown on me!

As for the Miata, I had no problem working the pedals in the new one at the auto show, even in my Doc Martens... so that gives me hope.


That is very true. I think much of the weight issue isn't the power to weight ratio (as my 3800lb CTS-V has 3x the power of the MR2 and less than twice the weight...) It's more that I want a low-slung car that I can have fun chucking around. Something about a 2100-2200lb car appeals to me more than something that weighs as much or more than my CB7.
Skidpad results that I've found do show the S2000 to perform better by .02g than the MR2, though I couldn't find any reports from the same sources. I also found that the 2nd gen Miata apparently was .02g over the S2000. I'd like to find comparable road tests from the same publication for the MR2, Miata, and S2000.


Regardless, I'm not going to be racing whatever I get, so I'll likely never really see the limits.


Right now, the Miata is holding strong on overall value (it's affordable, but likely to hold onto much of its value as years pass), overall performance, and availability of damn near everything I'm looking for. If I get a 20th century Miata, it only requires 87 octane. It's really only lacking that "special" feeling.

The S2000 holds strong because it's the most powerful, possibly the most valuable (though it will never be on par with the NSX... it's just too common for that), and I'll admit that the screaming engine and standard LSD are appealing. What I don't like is the higher price for most repairs, the need for premium fuel (that would mean all 3 of my cars require premium!), and as stupid as it sounds... I kinda want to get away from Honda for a bit! Also, the hard top I could get for it is pretty fugly. Still, it is to be considered. The good outweighs the bad.

The MR2 appeals to me because it's less common than the Miata or S2000, it's affordable, it runs on 87 octane fuel, and it's a mid-engine car (which I think would be cool to have.) It's the closest thing I can get to the Lotus that i wanted. The downside is that I HAVE to get one that is more than a decade old, working on the MR engine could be a pain in the ass, and I've never really had a great love of Toyota.

Honestly, at this point, it's these three that I'm wrestling with the most. It'll definitely come down to the driving experience, I think!

I think if you drive them, you will see that the weight difference isn't as much an issue as the size difference.

The other thing I thought about, and don't know that answer to, because I haven't looked, you might want to look at safety as well. I know the S2K has rollover protection, and a lot of other safety features as well, but am not familiar with the other two.

As for the Honda thing, I get that, but if you really think about it, the CTS-V is about as far from a Honda as you can get, and the S2000 is just on a different planet than the swapped CB7 and Fit. Not saying it isn't important, just that you really need to give it a good try and see what you think.

Also, if you keep it stock, there will be no "ricer" or "Honda" scene. Most of the S2K's I see (Texas is car crazy with lots of rich people) are in their 40's or 50's and are completely stock. I don't image Jersey would be much different. Plus, as it would probably be more of a weekend car, you could get away from the Honda scene every time you don't drive it.

I like the Z3, but they are money pits. My friends parents have one, and it has had several issues (Bimmers at that age are starting to need system rebuilds) and every time it does, it is at least $1,000 to have someone else fix it. The S2K might be a little more expensive, but they don't break often. I know you aren't really considering that Z3, but Bimmer reliability is such a shame. The only thing that keep the whole human race from driving one...

As for premium? I guess it matters more in the CTS, but meh. The average cost to the average person is less than $200 a year difference. Especially if it is an occasional driver/weekend car, and you aren't driving 90 million miles per year for work. I figured it out once, and the Si costs me like an extra $125 a year for premium. That was over $3 a gallon.

[deevergote]

Yeah, that's true on all counts. In the CTS-V, with its large capacity tank (though not large enough to drive further than the Fit can...) and 14mpg local driving... it's painful. The S2000, maybe not so painful.

And you're also right about avoiding the Honda stigma if I'm leaving it stock. I do see plenty of middle-aged professionals driving bone-stock pristine S2000s (as well as Miatas and MR2s...)

I just hate the world I'm stuck in now. I despise being part of this whole "stance" BS. I've seen so many "stanced" S2000s that it's hard to separate the car itself from the idiots that drive them!

Again, driving all 3 at the very least is going to be absolutely necessary to make up my mind. They all have their appeal... and drawbacks.

I did a quick cars.com search, and got these three listings. Similar looks, and prices that seem fair based on condition and mileage for each car. I didn't really spend time worrying about specs.

Miata
S2000
MR2

[deevergote]

Ok, so upon further research, the Miata, S2000, and MR2 are still neck and neck. I've ruled out the NB Miata (2nd gen) because the looks just don't appeal to me. It also seems to be among the least favorite of Miata fans... like the R33 of the Miata world!

All three can be had with LSD
S2000 - Standard
Miata - Optional
MR2 - Optional

Transmission gears
S2000 - 6
NC Miata - 6
NA Miata - 5
MR2 - 5 (6 speed SMT not a consideration.)

All three can be had with a hard top
S2000 - about $1000 for a non-hideous OE hard top
NA Miata (1st gen) - about $250
NC Miata (3rd gen) - Optional factory power hard top from 2006 on (likely adds to the price of the car, and definitely adds almost 100lbs to the overall weight.) I can find racks and covers for removable hard tops for the NC, but I can't seem to find any actual tops for sale!
MR2 - Optional aftermarket, about $2000.
The hardtop Miata and S2000 have power tops, whereas the MR2 and soft-top Miatas are manual. Luxury vs. fewer things to break... both have merits!



Power to weight:
S2000 - 1:11.83 (250hp, 2850lbs)
NC Miata - 1:15 (with power hard top, estimated weight. 100lbs added to lightest published weight. 170hp, 2550lbs)
MR2 - 1:15.91 (138hp, 2195lbs)

Roadholding (Car and Driver tests, for consistency.)
S2000 - .90g (.88g for the AP2)
NC Miata - .90g
NA Miata - .82g
MR2 - .88g

All three come with the white/black color combo that I prefer, though the S2000 has weird red accents that I could do without. Not a deal breaker.


Average selling price for one in acceptable condition under $15,000:
S2000 - $13,000 to $15,000
NC Miata - $12,000 to $15,000
NA Miata - $3,000 to $7000 (restoration required beyond purchase price.)
MR2 - $7,000 - $10,000



That's today's musings. Putting it down partially so I remember it. Feedback, suggestions, etc... are still quite welcome!
I'm still in the early stages of figuring out what I want, so things could change. The last time I did this, I went from wanting an S4 to a Crossfire... and finally landed in a CTS-V

[phatdoughnut]

Just get a brand new CTS-V and be done with it.