Cisco NA F22 non-VTEC SOHC Project - Full Street White

[KeeleDesign]

sweet.....

i know everyone has their own beliefs, and i am in the middle.. I have been told by so many tuners and hot rodders, to break them in how your gona drive them,, if your gona raise hell then break it in that way, then there are the hard core fanatics that say you need to drive 500 miles below 4,500 rpm's and not to use full synthetic oil.

i agree that the oil is a good point, but the other 2 theory's, i do not know . so when i broke mine in i split the difference and went 250 miles then gave her hell! lol.

I am so glad you didn't have any main issues on start up.
I had the same problem with my fans and it was just the relay.

I am really confused as to why he thinks you need the rc 440 injectors? wouldn't you have way to much fuel then...

[d112crzy]

not if it's tuned.

[Shadow1]

i talked to cisco the other day when he was at the shop. i cant wait to see the numbers for this project. keep it up man

[Granite CB7]

This is really exciting news, I am grinning from ear to ear right now

[HondaFan81]

Put some more mileage on the motor, will put more now that I'm back from vacation, as it will be my work car as long as the weather cooperates. I took photos of the engine tonight, working in uploading them. Also, diagnosed and fixed my cooling fan issue, it was the coolant temp switch B (water outlet) portion of the fan timer unit circuit that is bad. Basically, I bypassed that portion of the fan timer unit to rely on the coolant switch itself to operate on/off.

[HondaFan81]

Please be patient, I have the photos taken of the engine bay area with the motor fully installed/running. However, I have to figure out how to post them up since I'm in a different situation and can't do it at work since they have a smartfilter system now.

FYI: I have 71 miles on the motor now and it is my first day back from vacation. I'll be racking up the mileage M-F going to work and more on the weekends. I just wonder how long the weather will hold up before it starts snowing heavily and they start salting the roads. I hope I get my header soon.

[HondaFan81]

Well, after letting the car fully warm up and after a good run on it to verify, here are the following oil pressures for me:

SETUP:

- full F22ax SOHC non-VTEC motor
- TOGA high volume oil pump
- Kaizenspeed balance shaft eliminator kit
- Autometer 0-100 psi electrical gauge kit
- 5W30 mineral motor oil
- Greddy oil block adapter (for oil psi gauge sender unit)

OIL PRESSURE READINGS:

- 1300 rpm, 62.5 psi
- 1500 rpm, 75 psi
- 2000 rpm, 87.5 psi
- 2500+ rpm, <100 psi (just shy of)

Factory specs are 50 psi minimal at 3000 rpm.

I'm in the midst of verifying if these oil pressure levels are okay or not as the motor is breaking in.

[HondaFan81]

I'd bet his idle around 1300 with that cam.

Where did you get the oil pump from? I think I want one but am having the hardest time finding high volume pump that aren't for b-series or k-series. I did find a dry sump kit for the s2000 though

Motor needs atleast 1300 rpm according to dyno tuner to idle, which seems right based on what I've found. Seems smoother idle at 1500 rpm though, problem is that it is not consistently at 1500 rpm, it fluctuates.

[HondaFan81]

Anyhow, this car overheated on me last night, found that lower radiator hose cold. Replaced the new OEM thermostat that was in there with another aftermarket OEM replacement and it ran at normal operating temperature idling for a good amount of time. I revved it up a few times and still, coolant temperature was fine. However, I then drove it on the highway 70-80 mph and noticed the coolant temperature started climbing up, it did not peg the hot zone, but got up there more than it should. Also, after more research I'm finding that if my Autometer electrical oil psi gauge is reading correctly and getting at/near 100 psi from 2500+ rpm, that is not good for the engine bearings. There is no need for more than 80 psi max it seems. Besides, the TOGA high-volume oil pump is designed with an 80 psi oil relief and serves more volume to the motor, but at similar oil pressure to a stock oil pump (so they tell me).

Needless to say, after resolving these issues and still awaiting the Bisimoto header, I am coming to the conclusion that this car will not be final dyno tuned and fully ready to rock until Spring 2008 due to weather increasingly getting worse/winter coming.

[KeeleDesign]

My main concern is to why your oil is acting the way it is.. thats not good at all for a N/A, when bottom goes.. it sucks.
hope all goes well, as for other matters I have been so freaking buisy with holidays and work and such... my attention has been pulled from my hobbies, but all is still good and looks great, not finished but almost. Kinda like your car. .. i wish you knew how excited i am to see your new headers and #'s...

[HondaFan81]

Hmm overheating while moving? Check your radiator? If you got a heat gun handy when it warms up you can see if its about even across it. Easy way to check the radiator to see if its working effectively.

Right now, all I know is that the upper hose, all heater hoses are hot, I get hot air inside the cabin. The lower radiator hose is cold throughout its length. No external leaks visible. At idle and lower RPMs, the coolant temp is fine, it's when I'm 3000+ rpm that it gets hotter than it should. Technically it's not overheating in the red zone, but it's on the high-end of the normal zone and stays there.

I'm happy that the lower radiator hose is cold, this gives me more confidence that it is a coolant system issue and no the motor overheating within. I am banking on finding something impeding the flow of the coolant system, I haven't had a chance to investigate further. I am also going to confirm the coolant temp is indeed getting hotter than it should with temp probe.

Regarding the oil pressure issue, I will confirm with mechanical oil psi gauge the pressure is indeed accurate from the Autometer gauge. I need to investigate this further and it may require removing the TOGA oil pump and fixing the oil relief valve if it's sticking, or getting an OEM oil pump all of which will get tore down, inspected and reassembled before use. I will go with the most cost-effective way to resolve this issue achieving my quality concerns (i.e. better than sintered metal drive gear, oil relief works appropriately and inspection is OK).

[HondaFan81]

I know this is groundless and nonsensical...

but I have a hunch the 2 problems are related somehow...

Does the coolant bleed valve spew coolant at idle when opened?


huge amounts of air in the system have given me similar problems with the overheating in the past... have you tried the removing rad cap and idling and low revving to see if there is any air bleeding out?

Could be a sensor issue as well...might want to look into a seperate gauge to replace the OE good enough gauge.

good luck finding it though man...don't let it get you down... gremlins are typical... you will get it resolved.

Thanks for the support. The motor ran fine for 220-230 miles at normal coolant temperatures, then suddenly overheated. Replacing the new OEM Tstat with another, had better results, but still not fully resolved. Temps are fine at idle (like before), doesn't fully overheat (like before). However, the lower hose remains cold throughout its length.

When motor overheated, I pulled over and opened the cap slowly, felt air rush but no coolant spewed out, then fully opened the radiator cap. It was cold out so any warm air hitting the cold, created vapor. When I replaced Tstat, I bled the system through the bleeder and it bubbled some air from me removing lower hose, etc, but then steady stream.

[HondaFan81]

weirdness...

You might try letting it idle with the cap off with some short revs after warming it up...I've had to do this multiple times to get all the air out...

I know it's a stretch and baseless... I think it's the TOGA pump... damaged something and theres a blockage...That's what my gut is telling me. Could be totally wrong.

Could just be air or a blackage in the coolant system...


definitely weird though.

It could be related or separate issues, I shall find out. I am looking at them separate for now, but keeping the correlation in back of my mind. One being oil pump oil relief binding causing the high pressure, pegging 100 psi at 3000 and beyond RPM.

I overheat not at idle, but at highway speeds that I'm 3000-4000 rpm (maybe I haven't run it long enough at idle and perhaps it will too). Anyhow, it could be the 3000+ RPM overheat correlates with the oil pump pegging 100 psi. However, the lower radiator hose is cold throughout, upper hose & all heater hoses are hot, I get heat in cabin so why?

The cold lower radiator hose leads me to believe it is probably 2 different issues. 1) Possibly clogged/air in coolant system. 2) Oil pump oil relief binding.

Enough speculation, I'm going to investigate more tonight, hopefully.

[HondaFan81]

At work i use a system called airlift which puts the whole cooling system into a total vacuum. it then uses that vacuum to pull the coolant out of the bottle and fill the cooling system ensuring that there is no airpockets in the system whatsoever. also i wonder if your water pump is working propperly?
I had an issue similar to this at my work with an audi 1.8t engine where the impeller of the water pump had slightly broken off the drive shaft and would allow circulation at idle and low rpms but would slip and restrict flow at higher rpms.

Good idea, a friend of mine mentioned the same thing. We looked at an old OEM F22 waterpump and he said they are pressed-on impellers and he's had 2 waterpumps in general (not necessarily Honda) have slipping impellers that at idle produced normal operating temps, then at higher rpms slipped and overheated or hotter than normal temps. I will be removing and inspecting the installed waterpump, replacing it if necessary in addition to checking for coolant system blockages.

[HondaFan81]

I can't believe I didn't think of this sooner!!! When you let the car idle in the driveway, does the lower radiator hose get warm? Or hell, run without a thermostat to confirm that the system works properly save for the t-stat, does it get warm? I bet it does!


Check the ground on the t-stat housing and on the trans. The pressure gauge works by varying the ground signal to the gauge, and the temp gauge works off the same principle. They'd both use the ground on the t-stat. I had the same problem, almost to the t, when I swapped my 5 speed in. The temp gauge would read normal while idling, even for 45 minutes in the 90 degree heat, then a 5 minute drive would send the gauge into the red. My ebay pressure gauge would read 85+psi (50psi max is normal for it) when this would happen. If I let the car sit, even while running, for a few minutes the gauges would go back to normal. It wouldn't always happen either... sometimes it'd be fine for a hundred miles then it'd freak out going to the corner store.

I replaced the main ground on the trans, ran a ground wire from the battery to the t-stat housing, and cleaned the housing with drano and a wire brush. I fixed my gauge issues. It'd be nice for it to be that simple. It kinda makes sense if you think about it from an engineering prospective. Heat, radio and magnetic interference will affect what runs though wires. Ground wires in the enginebay of a car gets all 3 of them, and gets alot of them.
Chagine the thermostat probably changed the temp of when it opened. Cold michigan air will cool the radiator quickly, especially when you have an aluminum racing radiator (you do, right?). The thermostat wouldn't need to be open long to cool the system. It makes a lot of sense to me.

I have a new OEM replacement Koyo radiator installed, not the racing version. I do have the Tstat ground wire installed, also the whole Tstat and water outlet housings were all media-blasted, so the contact is clean. I have 3 ground wires present all coming to one location, they fan out to the valve cover, head and starter (which indirectly is bolted to tranny and block). I feel that is enough grounds and keeps things tidy. I will consider the possibility of coolant sender unit wire interference with a ground wire, both are insulated, but nonetheless I will test that theory. Also, my oil psi sender unit for the Autometer elect. oil psi gauge is located off a Greddy oil block adapter. The ground for the sender unit is in the cabin, so I think your related comment is irrelevant. Thanks though.

FYI: Yes, I'm running 180 deg. Tstat, it's OEM replacement Stant brand since I thought my OEM Tstat was bad because of cold lower hose. However, we reused it on my parent's 93 LX and it works fine.