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SSMAccord : 1992 Accord EX

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  • SSMAccord
    replied
    Another Fine Fiasco: Mid Ohio Sports Car Course

    Continuing the summertime activities, the next event on the docket was a trip down to Mansfield, Ohio to participate in a track day hosted by Midnight Motorsports. Before that I needed to do a little problem solving; I had an annoying rattle noise coming from the front driver's side of the car and the tach had been behaving erratically.


    After a bunch of trouble shooting, which included checking the driver's side mount to the engine block, a new wheel bearing, installing a new bearing in the intermediate shaft and swapping out the coilover it turned out to be the anchor camber kit. I originally tightened it when I started the process of tracking down the noise, but apparently I hadn't tightened the bolts enough the first time. Ugh.

    Intermediate Shaft Bearing Replacement



    The tach issue led me to believe that the ICM was malfunctioning. I have a spare, but I bought another one and the issue persisted. I decided that maybe the CKP that is inside the distributor may be the issue. I soldered in a sensor from an old distributor and the issue still exists. The engine is unaffected by the tach behaviour which leads me to believe it is either a loose wire in the connection on the cluster swap mini-harness or the PCB for the tach might have a solder joint that needs to be reflowed. I will probably tackle that in the fall/winter when I feel like taking the dash bezel out. Since the tach issue would not be resolved in time for the event, I left it alone since isn't imparing the operation of the car.

    Tach Repair


    Tach Repair


    The caravan there was uneventful, dinner in Toledo which allowed one of our group stragglers to catch up to us. I am not much of a camper, so I stayed overnight in a hotel instead of camping at the track with group. The stay in the hotel was ok other than I had sworn many years ago to never come back to the actual town due me previously being arrested in this town...

    Mid Ohio @ Nighttime


    Mid Ohio Front Straight 1


    Mid Ohio Front Straight 2




    There had been a couple of rain showers the day prior the track day, but the day of the event was very rainy. Mid Ohio being a track used in a variety of motorsports events means that it has a lot of rubber on the track, there is also some kind of sealant on the surface throughout the track. That combination leads to a very slick track when it rains; there is a wet line but it is very odd. In my first session out, on the first turn, the CB oversteered in a way that I hadn't experienced before, I managed to save it and continue on for an additional lap. The CB decided to oversteer in a different part of the track which caused me to decide to get off track and see if the weather would let up by the time it was my second session.

    While I waited for my next session, and listened in to my work meetings lol, I decided to add some toe-in to the rear wheels. In the process of removing the wheels, I discovered that the last oversteer event had snapped 3 of my rear wheel studs, which is kinda odd considering that they are HR wheel studs. Uh oh. I don't carry the tools to replace wheel studs in my track pack, nor do I carry additional wheel studs.

    Broken Wheel Studs



    Thinking quickly, I hopped on the internet and ordered a rear wheel hub from Napa. It was available locally and should have been a quick pickup item, of course that wouldn't work out that way. Around noon, 3 hours after I placed the order, I figured I would just drive back into town and check in with Napa because the system may have not nofified me that the part was availble to pickup. The pleasant counter rep told me that it should have been there, but the warehouse had processed, lost and then found the part and it would arrive by 3pm instead of noon. Arrrrgh.

    I decided maybe I would just swap the studs out and not waste an entire track day. Since I was at Napa I decided to just install studs for the time being, only then did it occur to me that I did not have my wallet... After haggling with the clerk I managed to leave with the lugs since I had to come back to pick up the wheel hub later anyhow and could pay for them at that time.

    Napa didn't have the necessary tools to install the lugs, so I began driving to Advance Auto Parts on the opposite side of town. Along the way, I remembered that I did not have a wallet but I did have the internet! I hurriedly found the tools I needed on the site and placed another pick up order. This worked out. Got the tools and headed back to the track.

    And then I remembered, the rear of the car has spacers AND extended wheel studs. The Napa studs would not work (they would work if i decided to run without the spacers however), I then placed another pickup order from Advance for 8mm longer wheel studs. I got 10 studs and made it back to the paddock. With the help of the crew I got all 10 studs swapped in record time. Unfortunately they were still not long enough to allow me to run spacers, no biggee.

    By that point the rain had slowed down and the track was transitioning from wet to damp-ish. Feeling better and not having a meeting to be in, I went out for my second run of the day. The track was still very slick, I managed to get a half of a lap in before I decided that I was still not comfortable with the grip level of the track. Someone had also crashed out in the time between my first and second sessions, which gave me pause about also crashing out myself. I decided to just do ridealongs for the rest of the day. I noticed that the Miata, which also runs a 200 TW trackday tire was also really skittish on track where the M5 and Corvette were much better behaved since they were on less track day focused tires. I might have to invest in a back up set of wheels and tires for future rainy day events.

    Rainy First Session



    Damp Second Session



    The rest of the day was simple, I went back to town to pick up the wheel hub and give back the studs I didn't end up using. The drive home was also uneventful except for the scavenger hunt we took on to find e85 for the Miata. All good times though.

    Paddock 1



    Paddock 2



    Paddock 3 with E39 M5



    Paddock 4 with Miata

    *if you look closely you can see the unfortunate STI in the background




    I have ordered ARP extended wheel studs that will replace the Advance studs, but I have some time before I need to do that.


    Summertime in the City


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  • Straight Success
    replied
    Looking like someone was having fun at the track. Car's looking great too, but you already know that.

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  • SSMAccord
    replied
    Originally posted by Raf99 View Post
    Man I'm jealous. Man that track looks fun! You were just sitting in 3rd gear most the way too. Even though I have a local track here (and only one ​​ ) I haven't found the time or $ to put Sally on it, although I've been told I should. But like going to the drag strip I just don't want to break stuff or more like I'd rather save the $ to buy more parts. Dunno, maybe I need to make more money to do this hobby. Assuming $ is not an option I'm surprised you don't have a baffled oil pan on there already. You should buy one, quick and easy install. That wet spot / dry spot / wet spot on last corner you mentioned. But was a road I knew, was dry-ish most the way but really wet / snow spot on same kind of turn. .... , back end let loose in the 1st wet/puddle, then the car caught the dry part (lol), and spun around so quick! I grabbed the e-brake knowing I wasn't going to be able to counter steer it and I ended up in the ditch on the other side, butt first. Luckily no-one was around, and the car drove out. As for your weight distribution I can see why people put the battery on the passenger side rear now.
    Waterford is a decent raceway and it very close to my metro area. I was apprehensive about the rain, but it turned out ok despite the interior being soggy in a few areas lol. The track days we attend are pretty cheap, usually around $200 usd. I think road circuits are little less harsh on the mechanical bits, most of the items are wear items like brake pads and oil.

    I haven't decided what to do about the oiling issue, a baffled pan would likely work. I don't think I like any of the ones available as virtually all of them are steel pans that require the rubber oil pan gasket versus the cast aluminum pans that use Hondabond. Perhaps an accusump setup? But there really isn't space for it anywhere except the trunk.

    Yeah, I am afraid of losing control on track. Since I am still figuring out the chassis setup/balance, the handling characteristics are very safe and predictable. I expect the car will get more sorted as events continue and I am able to tweak the settings. Having a car snap around due to rapid friction changes on the road surface is frightening, I am glad you managed to save Sally in that instance. I have found the weight transfer that lightens the rear of the car makes the rear of the car very susceptible to sudden oversteer situations.


    Originally posted by Daheavyking View Post
    This sedan is so beautiful!! Wooooooooooooooow!!
    Thanks. It is a labor of love I think.​


    Originally posted by CyborgGT View Post
    So cool to see a Mk4 Supra on a road course. I'm a bit tired of seeing 1000hp freeway dragsters, if I'm honest.
    It was quite nice to see it on a road course holding its own. It did really well, he did a lot of mods to reduce weight as the MKIV Supra is quite heavy for a 90s car.

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  • CyborgGT
    replied
    So cool to see a Mk4 Supra on a road course. I'm a bit tired of seeing 1000hp freeway dragsters, if I'm honest.

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  • Daheavyking
    replied
    This sedan is so beautiful!! Wooooooooooooooow!!

    Leave a comment:


  • Raf99
    replied
    Man I'm jealous. Man that track looks fun! You were just sitting in 3rd gear most the way too. Even though I have a local track here (and only one ) I haven't found the time or $ to put Sally on it, although I've been told I should. But like going to the drag strip I just don't want to break stuff or more like I'd rather save the $ to buy more parts. Dunno, maybe I need to make more money to do this hobby. Assuming $ is not an option I'm surprised you don't have a baffled oil pan on there already. You should buy one, quick and easy install. That wet spot / dry spot / wet spot on last corner you mentioned. But was a road I knew, was dry-ish most the way but really wet / snow spot on same kind of turn. .... , back end let loose in the 1st wet/puddle, then the car caught the dry part (lol), and spun around so quick! I grabbed the e-brake knowing I wasn't going to be able to counter steer it and I ended up in the ditch on the other side, butt first. Luckily no-one was around, and the car drove out. As for your weight distribution I can see why people put the battery on the passenger side rear now.

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  • SSMAccord
    replied
    Second and Third Field Trip of 2021: The Tale of 2 Trackdays - Waterford Raceway


    Missing out on the Gingerman track day, the next track day that my friend group had on the docket was Waterford Raceway. This track is local to Detroit so it wouldn't require any camping or overnight hotel stays. I was unfamiliar with the group hosting the trackday, but I was told that it was a bit more recreational than instructional. Luckily the team that hosted the Grattan day in May was also hosting an event the week before my planned track day. I figured I could do that event to get acclimated with the track and then be better prepared for the following week's event.

    The first trackday, hosted by 3Ballsracing, was busy as I anticipated. They host a huge range of driver's and cars and have really good methods and instruction. Since I hadn't told anyone that I was attending, I didn't anticipate any of my personal friends being there; to my surprise a bunch of my friend's who weren't going to the second track day showed up at this one. It was a good coincidence seeing that the people who attended are really advanced track rats and I was able to get really good lessons and ride along experience. Some of the cars on hand were interesting to see and hear on track.

    Superlite Cars SLC




    Mark IV Supra




    Lexus SC400 with Burly Man




    Porsche 911 GT3




    JJami97's EF Hatch




    Micah's GS






    I also managed to make some new friends who were all in my driving bracket; one is a Toyota employee who brought a TRD prepped enduro Corolla hatch and the other 2 guys drove up from Ohio. It was nice being able to compare lap times and technique with people driving cars closer to the CB in regards of power and capability.

    Paddock 1




    Paddock 2




    End of Day






    Coming off of the brake incident at Grattan, I am still very weary of having a second type of failure. I think I managed to figure out what happened by replicating the series of events in a controlled manner during this event. Having swapped out the banjo bolts, installed fresh washers, applying thread locker and safety wiring the parts I made sure to check the fittings after each session on track. After a few sessions the brake calipers themselves get really hot, which is normal, but the Spoon calipers seem to expand a bit due to the heat which causes the banjo bolts to weep and then slowly back out. While the calipers were still hot, I cut the safety wires and retorqued the banjo bolts, I was able to get about an additional 1/2 turn on the bolts and then safety wire them again. After that the calipers haven't had issue, in the future if I have to service the bolts I will torque them, bed the pads to heat up the calipers and then retorque them while hot to avoid disaster.

    I am still getting comfortable driving the CB on track and haven't yet pushed it too far, I also would like to not crash, harm the engine or exhaust the limits of my driving abilities. By the end of 5 or 6 sessions I was at least comfortable with parts of the track. Coming out of turn 4 (Hill Top) and turn 7 (The Esses) were starting to feel pretty good. Turn 1 and 2 I need to figure out a bit and I think I am way slow through Paddock Curve. I am taking it pretty easy just getting acclimated to the track and the car in those conditions, so hopefully I will be able to get faster laps during future events. Turn 8 coming up to Start/Finish does expose the lack of baffling in the H22 oil pan as it is a longish, higher speed left hand turn, as I get to the end valve lift will kick in but I think a solution will have to be created to prevent the condition in the future. I was able to get the CB weighed at the event, it tipped the scales at 1328 kgs or 2926 lbs with roughly a half tank of fuel. Calculating in the missing fuel, the CB weighs somewhere around 2968 lbs. Kinda porky for a 90's Honda, but less than the official CB curb weight (2623 lbs.) that doesn't include fluids in the calculation. Considering that this weight is without the additional 175lbs that I add to the car, I will have to get the car corner balanced at some point just by looking at the values on the scale.

    Scales




    My fastest lap was a 1:26.43, the TRD Corolla managed a 1:24.5ish lap and JJami97 in his half caged EF hatch was at a consistent 1:19:4XX for comparison. Both of those drivers are very talented and have much more experience than I do, so they have given me some benchmarks to target in terms of lap times.


    This is the video of just the fastest lap:




    This is the complete session as it was also the fastest of the day. I think that if had been able to trail the S2000 for longer I could have improved my times a bit, but due to traffic I lost contact with him after a while. I will say that I out ran the red Focus here which was lapping faster than I did at Grattan, so perhaps some progress was made from the Grattan event.





    6 Days Later...

    So the second weekend was expected to just be a continuation of the weekend before, also that was not meant to be. Trackalicious hosted this event, I had not run with them before but they also host a really great event. There is a bit less red tape to their event, which is nice in someways. The elephant in the room however was the weather; in the morning the weather was grey and overcast which would turn into a pretty decent downpour during the driver's meeting. The first group out got about 3 laps in before a major crash happened that caused the track to be shutdown for the rest of the morning. A driver in a brand new C8 Corvette managed to have an incident at the end of the back straight and plowed into the tire wall and then stuck in trees beyond that.

    That took a while to clean up which affected the track time for the day; given the weather and my apprehension with the grip level of the Dunlop StarSpec tires in the rain, I was ok to sit the event out and just do ride alongs. After a few ride along laps I worked up the courage to take the CB on track in the rain. The first session was in heavy rain and I called it quits after 3 laps, the amount of water and the way that it makes the car handle was nervewracking to say the least. As the amount of rainfall varied throughout the day, I managed to get in a few more sessions once of which was decent-ish. The area of most concern is actually where the Corvette had it's incident; coming on to the back straight turn 5 (Big Bend) had a dry patch situated between 2 very wet areas which causes a unnerving sensation before you get onto the straight. The latter part of the back straight has large areas of standing water that can cause some degree of hydroplaning, after experiencing that in the ride along and in the CB I was very cautious of wiping out there. Starting the day with a humbling off track crash, everyone drove with caution and no other incidents occurred.


    Paddock 1




    Paddock 2





    The fastest wet lap in the CB was 1:55:3xx, a 30 second change from the dry time. My fastest ride along was in a C6 Corvette which lapped at 1:51:63, not too far from that time I guess. There was a newer Jetta GLI and a Fiesta ST that were lapping in the 1:45 - 1:48 region for reference.

    Fastest Lap Video:




    Full Session Video:





    Getting to experience the track in 'ideal' conditions and in the wet was really interesting. The first day was very much about getting comfortable with the car and learning the track. The wet day kinda turned that dichotomy on it's ear; it was much more about finding a pace and trusting that there was some level of traction on the track surface, how that level of traction varied around the track versus how much rainfall was occurring during the sessions. I was nervous throughout most of it, but made the most of the experience.

    I think there are a couple Track Days in the coming months, so hopefully I will be able to get more track time.
    Last edited by SSMAccord; 07-19-2021, 11:39 PM.

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  • SSMAccord
    replied
    Originally posted by Grumpys93 View Post
    Raf,
    With the clunk, those were my same exact thoughts, as mine does the same.

    For the bushings, I do not have any issues with the solid bushings causing 1st or 5th to pop out, granted I haven't tracked the car yet.


    Also nice job on the safety wire, I use to deal with that stuff on the daily when I was enlisted. Curious where you secured the other end to? It looks like you have it more in a neutral position on the banjo bolts, which should be ok since there isn't really a load on that bolt. I would also loop the end back on itself where you cut it. You do that by simply clamping the end of the safety wire pliers on the tip of the end and roll it inward. This will prevent you from sticking your hand when you reach in or catching anything it comes in contact with.
    The potential clunking from the traction bar setups is what keeps me from getting one.

    The pop out issue was happening in traffic on the street, it wasn't frightening just very annoying as it made it sound like I suddenly wanted race someone. I would imagine that it could be dangerous in a hot track condition. I will try to revisit it since I still have to install the solid plate bushings.

    Thanks for the insight, the safety wiring was pretty fun to learn. Thank to Adam Savage's YT channel I got a pretty good run down of how to do it. I did loop the ends back up, they are quite sharp as I learned lol. I was going to secure the other end to the braided hose where the banjo fitting is, but the head of the pliers wouldn't fit between the hose and the caliper body. The end is now attached to the lower brake tube on the caliper.

    Leave a comment:


  • Grumpys93
    replied
    Raf,
    With the clunk, those were my same exact thoughts, as mine does the same.

    For the bushings, I do not have any issues with the solid bushings causing 1st or 5th to pop out, granted I haven't tracked the car yet.


    Also nice job on the safety wire, I use to deal with that stuff on the daily when I was enlisted. Curious where you secured the other end to? It looks like you have it more in a neutral position on the banjo bolts, which should be ok since there isn't really a load on that bolt. I would also loop the end back on itself where you cut it. You do that by simply clamping the end of the safety wire pliers on the tip of the end and roll it inward. This will prevent you from sticking your hand when you reach in or catching anything it comes in contact with.

    Leave a comment:


  • Raf99
    replied
    Ya, great idea on the go pro mount! I don't have a sunroof and sat there one day trying to figure out how?? how to mount the go pro. .... I gave up haha. So thanks for the idea

    The shifting thing..... Ya. You could adjust the cables but ..... not sure that's the answer. I imagine Honda went with the rubber bushings to alleviate vibrations but also to have some softness for the shifting. This softness will obsorb any harsh back lash from torque too. Think about it, the engine moves when you rev it. The trans moves too and probably the shifter cables too (inside their cladding). But the shifter plate assembly is static to the body. Now...... maybe I'm exaggerating but I bet you if one had rock solid shifter bushings and soft engine mounts it would just pop out more.

    The clunk. My clunk and what I thought you were describing is the ESP traction bar, where the radius rods ears go into the bar. There's metal on metal contact there and it only touches when you hit a severe angle. Mine does it when I am braking and going into a ...... gas station for example. The cars weight shifts and ya. Annoying. I tried putting rubber in there but it didn't work. Both sides do it and it can be loud enough that you thought something is broke I guess.



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  • SSMAccord
    replied
    I was on the waitlist for the Memorial Day track day at Gingerman. But a spot never materialized, oh well perhaps it was for the best.



    Field Trip #2 Prep:

    Following up from the last post...
    The control arm swap and camber kit changeover was simple enough. The change does give about an inch more vertical clearance for the upper control arm. Access to the forward bolt for the camber adjustment is tight, but easier to access than the upper mount bolt for the SPC balljoint unit.



    Onto the latest happenings:



    Brake Parts

    The remainder of the brake parts also arrived:

    Safety Wire
    Safety Wire Pliers
    New Copper Washers



    Hawk 600 Brake Fluid




    Powerstop Track Day Brake Pads




    Installation again was simple until it got to the safety wiring bit. Having never done this process before I had to watch a couple of Youtube videos to get acclimated. Getting the wires installed was only a few minutes of additional fiddling and a couple of tries to get it right.




    All done and bled. The Power Stop Track Day pads are proving to be much quieter than the HP Plus pads. The safety wire seems to work as intended, at the next track day I'll be able to see if the issue is resolved.


    Axle Replacement
    Since the last track day caused the new driver's side axle to tear the boot and leak grease inside wheel it needed to get a new boot. I thought that would be simple, but dudnt actually go as expected. Getting the CV joint free from the shaft is a bit more intense that I thought it would be, so I figured that I would just order a new or refurbed unit from Rock Auto and be done with it. Unfortunately, the listings on Rock Auto aren't accurate. I ended up ordering 3 different driver's side axles only to receive 3 passenger side axles. Either quality control is low or the companies remanufacturing or making these axles don't know the passenger inner shafts are not the same driver's side vs passenger side. In the end I figured if I was ordering online it would be easier to order from Orielly and get it overnight and be able to return it immediately if it was wrong. Turns out they got it right. Problem solved.


    *this axle hasn't been sitting in a warehouse for any number of years, now has it? lol



    The 'Clunk'


    I also have spent the last...7 or 8 weeks since Grattan tracking down the most annoying 'CLUNK' noise that began on the drive home from the Grattan track day. I have disassembled and reassembled various parts of the front suspension 2 or maybe 3 times a week trying to reproduce a sound that only occurs when the car is in motion. To little avail...

    So far I have disassembled, reassembled or investigated:
    Upper Control Arms
    Lower Control Arms
    Radius rods and bushings
    Replaced the front steering knuckle
    Replaced the front torque mount (which actually needed to be replaced)
    Swapped in a spare coilover
    Swapped in the old Odyssey knuckles
    Disconnected the front sway bar, inspected the bushings
    Inspected the brake calipers and rotors
    Checked the subframe mounting bolts
    Checked the rack and pinion mounting bolts
    Checked or replaced tie rod ends

    And still...the 'Clunk' persisted. I decided to investigate the rear engine mount which would be an odd failure considering it was replaced last year. In the process I removed the ESP strut bar as well; the engine mount and all of those bolts were at proper torque and the mount was in good condition. I reassembled it all and finally reached the point of "I suppose it hasn't hurt anything", figuring that the issue will reveal itself to me when it finally does break something. I also needed to bed the new brake pads that same night, so about 1am it was time to get that process done. Miraculously, the clunk was gone. It seems that the issue all this time were the 3rd mounting point bolts for the strut bar. The bolts must have worked themselves loose during the track day and allowed it to bang into the firewall. The clunk only happened in response in chassis flex which I cannot replicate when the car is on jackstands which made it impossible to find. UGH...



    Rear Wheel Bearing Replacement

    One of the rear hubs was making a noise prior to the Grattan track day and I figured now is a good of a time as any to replace it. Thanks to me doing this a few years ago and struggling to get the inner race off of the shaft during the process, I anti-seized the shaft upon reinstallation and this time the bearing came off with the bearing race intact.





    FFC Shifter Bushing

    In a strange situation, after the effort to get the FFC shifter bushings installed on the trans, I had to take this large bushing out. After installing this, it created a problem where the trans would consistenly pop out of 1st and 5th gear. After thinking that the MTEC springs were at fault due to the increased tension and removing them the problem remained, but resolved once I put the rubber bushing back in place here. Perhaps the cables need adjusting if I try to reinstall this? I dunno yet.





    Track Pack

    In an effort to have a single item to have to load and unload at the track, I perused me local Container Store and found this guy. It is large enough for the toolkit to fit inside along with other incidental items, met the height and width requirement to fit in the trunk with the battery box and floor jack.







    Go Pro Mount

    The videos from the Grattan track day were my first stab with the Go Pro. At that event I suction mounted to the sunroof glass which created an angle that looked down into the car instead of looking forward onto the track. The ideal location is mounted to the roll cage bar, but I don't have one of those...and I can't suction to the ceiling either. But I do have a dome light I can mount to, but the suction cup it too large to work there. Gathering a dome light lens from the salvage yard I was able fashion up this that allows the Go Pro to be located in a more rearward and lower location. I hope that the angle is better than before.


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  • SSMAccord
    replied
    Most of the parts meant to address the weak points that showed up during the track day have arrived.

    Upper Control Arms. These came from Rockauto, the image indicated that these would have castle nuts and cotter pins but they showed up with nylock bolts. It was easy enough to drill provisions for cotter pins, but just added tedium. I already have the Moog camber adjustable anchors that these will mount to.




    Security Wire Banjo Bolts. These should help prevent a sudden brake issue and also restore my confidence in the system, I have to order the security wire and security wire pliers to complete the install.




    Remanufactured CV Axle. I am going to reboot the new CV axle at some point, but this will work for now. I will vent both of the outer CV boots to prevent ballooning in the future. (thanks to aventari for showing how to vent tube the joints)

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  • SSMAccord
    replied
    Originally posted by Grumpys93 View Post
    That was fun to watch for sure! I always wanted to try a day on a track, but I haven't looked into any tracks near me. On a side note, seeing all these 92-93 with the high rise armrest center console really makes me want to get one. Question though, How far forward does the arm rest go? Does it extend as far out as the one attached to the driver side seat?
    Thanks. You definitely should, it really is a great way to enjoy the car that you've built!

    I think the armrest is worthwhile addition. It is lower than the seat mounted armrest and sits further rearward. I usually am not using it while shifting, but it is nice to be able to lounge once in a steady cruise.

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  • SSMAccord
    replied
    Originally posted by Raf99 View Post
    Thanks. I enjoyed my morning coffee watching and reading this!
    Thanks! It was an entertaining trip. I cant wait for the next outing, perhaps at the end of the month but most likely in July.

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  • Grumpys93
    replied
    That was fun to watch for sure! I always wanted to try a day on a track, but I haven't looked into any tracks near me. On a side note, seeing all these 92-93 with the high rise armrest center console really makes me want to get one. Question though, How far forward does the arm rest go? Does it extend as far out as the one attached to the driver side seat?

    Leave a comment:

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