Contemplating my next car (to replace the Fit.)

[deevergote]

Small is the point! I still have the CTS-V for size and comfort. I fit in the new 2015 Miata, so as long as I can fit in the older one, I'm straight. Haven't been in an MR2 before, though... so I'll need to see how that feels.

If big-ass Jeremy Clarkson can fit in a car, I'll fit just fine
I'll eventually have the CB7 rolling again as well. That, or I'll end up selling it and replacing it with something comparable in terms of size (maybe a Volvo... I do love me a Volvo.)

[owequitit]

That's my thinking on the MR2. I don't mind the low power all that much, since the low seating position, lightweight chassis, open top, and mid-engine layout will give it plenty of sportiness, I feel. I've read a fair amount of complaints regarding the suspension and transmission gearing, but those are things that I could change if I really wanted (again, I'd rather not get something that HAS to be modified!)

The NC Miata and S2000 are in the same weight class, IMO... both are relatively heavy, especially if I go with the NC with a power hardtop (which is what I'm leaning towards.) The NC makes a good 70hp less than the S2000, but 170hp is still perfectly respectable. 1/4 mile time is in the mid-15s, putting it fairly close to my CB7. Not fast by any means, but I'm not looking for a race car. I get all the thrust I need from the CTS-V!

I'm going to have to test drive both an AP1 and an AP2, especially if what Scott says is true about them having drastically different characteristics. I've been in an AP1 once, back when Accord R33 got his race car. I was actually impressed by how powerful it felt when he got on it. Possibly because I was expecting that 2.0L to be a torqueless wonder!
The AP1 is attractive to me because the redline is 1000 RPM higher than the AP2. The idea of revving to 9,000 just sounds so cool! I know that's like the kids in the CB7 crowd that want the F20B because it revs higher than the H22A (and is obviously better... ) I could be convincing myself of that as well, simply because I can probably find an AP1 in better condition for my target price. An AP2 is likely going to be in worse condition for what I'm looking to spend.

I'm going for something that feels "zippy" and easily thrown around. Something that I'm not afraid of breaking if I push it a bit. In that way, the Miata might be my best choice. The MR2 has a cheap engine and transmission, but they're most certainly going to be a pain in the ass to get to! The Miata remains the simplest vehicle considered at the moment.




I do wish I had a garage, and that the FFR 818 had an available roof... That car is $15,000 on the nose, built right!

I wouldn't put the S2K below either of the other two reliability wise. They have had AP1's that get the shit tracked out of them with no issues. They are starting to see some ring wear issues and other high RPM abuse symptoms on AP1's, but they are all well above 100K and have the shit beat out of them, usually on track days. AP2's are nigh bulletproof because they actually have better construction in several key areas, and their mean piston speeds are quite a bit lower, which pretty much removes the high RPM wear issues at high mileage with hard track use.

Also, the bottom ends on both cars are insanely strong. Shawn Church (Church Automotive) has a stock block AP1 that has been running over 500HP for years, and it is a dedicated track car, with no issues. It is fully forged, balanced and blueprinted from the factory.

There are also many turbo/supercharged AP1's and AP2's running around at 500+HP with stock blocks and no issues. At anything resembling a stock power level, I just don't see a reliability issue. The rear end was a little weak on the AP1 with repeated hard drag race style launches at 6K+ RPM, but that was about it, and I doubt you would be driving it that way.

The main reason I advocate the S2K is because I understand your criteria for a fun open top cruiser, but I think you will find the other two inadequate performance wise after coming out of the CTS. All 3 of your options have relatively the same problem, in that they have more chassis than engine. That is good because it keeps you out of trouble, and make it easy to enjoy the limits of the car, but at the same time, the closest one to being able to grow with you without having to modify it is going to be the S2K. In your case, the 9K RPM would be fun, but perhaps the AP2 is a better cruiser/back road crusher. The 8K is still pretty scintillating when you want it, and it is more than fast enough for any driving situation.

After tons of project non-sense, I am an advocate of just buying something that is close to what you want as practical, even if it costs you a little more money up front, you will be a LOT happier in the long term.

[deevergote]

I wouldn't put the S2K below either of the other two reliability wise. They have had AP1's that get the shit tracked out of them with no issues. They are starting to see some ring wear issues and other high RPM abuse symptoms on AP1's, but they are all well above 100K and have the shit beat out of them, usually on track days. AP2's are nigh bulletproof because they actually have better construction in several key areas, and their mean piston speeds are quite a bit lower, which pretty much removes the high RPM wear issues at high mileage with hard track use.

Also, the bottom ends on both cars are insanely strong. Shawn Church (Church Automotive) has a stock block AP1 that has been running over 500HP for years, and it is a dedicated track car, with no issues. It is fully forged, balanced and blueprinted from the factory.

There are also many turbo/supercharged AP1's and AP2's running around at 500+HP with stock blocks and no issues. At anything resembling a stock power level, I just don't see a reliability issue. The rear end was a little weak on the AP1 with repeated hard drag race style launches at 6K+ RPM, but that was about it, and I doubt you would be driving it that way.

The main reason I advocate the S2K is because I understand your criteria for a fun open top cruiser, but I think you will find the other two inadequate performance wise after coming out of the CTS. All 3 of your options have relatively the same problem, in that they have more chassis than engine. That is good because it keeps you out of trouble, and make it easy to enjoy the limits of the car, but at the same time, the closest one to being able to grow with you without having to modify it is going to be the S2K. In your case, the 9K RPM would be fun, but perhaps the AP2 is a better cruiser/back road crusher. The 8K is still pretty scintillating when you want it, and it is more than fast enough for any driving situation.

After tons of project non-sense, I am an advocate of just buying something that is close to what you want as practical, even if it costs you a little more money up front, you will be a LOT happier in the long term.

That last bit is exactly where I'm at as well. I'd love a project in the future... but that will likely be a kit car. If I ever abandon the CB7, my project car days are at a stop... at least until I have a garage in which to work on and store a car in all seasons and weather conditions (a 2-3 car attached garage is a requirement for my next house, probably 3 years or so from now.)

You're right about the bottom ends of the F20C/F22C... Forged internals from the factory, so they're plenty strong. FRM sleeves could result in oil consumption if the rumors are true (though my ancient and abused H22A never really had that issue.)

Power isn't as big of a concern, really. In some ways, more power might actually be a detriment. I can't whip the CTS-V around because it's big and heavy. Tires are expensive for it. Brakes are expensive for it. The engine is thirsty, and it makes WAY too much power to drive without focus.
I've found that tossing the 117hp Fit around corners, and winding out the wimpy little 1.5L engine (which wakes up pleasantly above 4k) is in many ways more fun than 90% of what the CTS-V does!
The MR2 is the best in terms of all of those issues (or the NA Miata... but that's a very old car...) Light weight, standard sized wheels, small brakes, and a base Celica engine that sips fuel. I'm not sure about the cost of NC Miata bits, but the underpoweredness of it (that's a word now...) actually appeals to me somewhat.
The S2000 is definitely going to be at the higher end of tires, brakes, shocks, etc... in terms of pricing. Being the heaviest of the three in consideration, I'm not sure I'd feel the car was "tossable" enough. I'm not making any decisions in that regard before driving one, though.

You do make one point about buying a car with considerable performance capability straight from the factory, as to avoid the desire to modify it further. The S2000's power output will certainly keep the "I wish I could do more" daydreams at bay somewhat. Of course, I'm also aware of many of the potential performance upgrades for the S2000 (whereas I know little about Miatas and MR2s!)
And even though 400hp from the CTS-V (maybe 430ish with my ECU reflash) is more than I can use, I'll admit to dreaming of supercharging, turbocharging, or adding a new camshaft and headers to it... (the thought of replacing that clutch keeps those dreams at bay!)



It's going to be a difficult decision. I love the looks of all three cars. All three offer drastically different personalities, and all three offer the same basic things I want (the lack of a reasonably priced hard top for the MR2 hurts it...)

[sandman61377]

S2000 all day, every day. Looks better than the other two, in my opinion, and I doubt you'll have any problem tossing it around. I throw my '08 Civic around curves and such all the time, and an S2k only weighs about 100 lbs more (sans hard top).

[h22sparkle]

S2000 all day, every day. Looks better than the other two, in my opinion, and I doubt you'll have any problem tossing it around. I throw my '08 Civic around curves and such all the time, and an S2k only weighs about 100 lbs more (sans hard top).

Lucky bum you

[CyborgGT]

Just look at that face! It's saying, "Deev, we'll do great things together." It may look a bit dopey and intoxicated, but his mind is clear as crystal.



As far as having two Minis in the 'family,' I saw two modded ones cruising together the other day. It was amazing. But then the original Italian Job is one of my favorite movies of all time.

[deevergote]

I actually considered a Mini, honestly. I kinda wanted the Mini Coupe, but it's way expensive, and the interior is seriously crappy!
My girl's Mini is about as good as you can get. She has EVERYTHING in that thing... so I'd feel inferior in anything less!


Every day, my tastes seem to drift between the MR2, Miata, and S2000. I have plenty of time yet, as I haven't found my next job (so I'm still driving 400 miles a day for my current job.) I won't kill whatever I get with my current job, so for the time being, it's just trying to get my head straight.

[gloryaccordy]

I enjoy commuting in my Civic a good bit more than my Z. I can beat the shit out of it and still be well within the limits of the law and safety. Z wants to cruise at 80. S2K wants to cruise at 80 too, but because the torque curve is flat it doesn't feel anywhere near as fast.

Plus you have the CTS-V, so if you want to be pinned to your seat you have that. Kinda like I have my bike. So I would go for what is most different from it. Only real bummer about the MR-S is it feels like a Corolla inside, while an S2K is really really nice. But there is nothing like a light ass car. I had a Fiat Panda in Italy that weighed about 2,000 lbs. Way up in the Tuscan mountains where it was down on its already weak 70 or so HP. But it was fun as hell. You could thrash that little thing all day and still be under the speed limit lol. Can't imagine that with double the power and a MR chassis. I would def do the MR-S

[af_1132]

Just look at that face! It's saying, "Deev, we'll do great things together." It may look a bit dopey and intoxicated, but his mind is clear as crystal.

His older brother also wants in, "Deev, I may be older, but I can mix things up real nice."



Simple is beautiful.



Less is more

[deevergote]

That's one reason I'm still considering that, even though it's going to be at least 20 years old! The 1st gen Miata looks old, but it's starting to look old like a MGB or Spitfire. An NA Miata in pristine condition is something even non-enthusiasts can truly appreciate. I bet I could roll up to my mom's in a 1995 Miata in perfect condition, and she'd guess it was no more than 10 years old.
To me, that's the only choice from the 90s open to me. The only one worth putting in the effort and cash to restore.

I enjoy commuting in my Civic a good bit more than my Z. I can beat the shit out of it and still be well within the limits of the law and safety. Z wants to cruise at 80. S2K wants to cruise at 80 too, but because the torque curve is flat it doesn't feel anywhere near as fast.

Plus you have the CTS-V, so if you want to be pinned to your seat you have that. Kinda like I have my bike. So I would go for what is most different from it. Only real bummer about the MR-S is it feels like a Corolla inside, while an S2K is really really nice. But there is nothing like a light ass car. I had a Fiat Panda in Italy that weighed about 2,000 lbs. Way up in the Tuscan mountains where it was down on its already weak 70 or so HP. But it was fun as hell. You could thrash that little thing all day and still be under the speed limit lol. Can't imagine that with double the power and a MR chassis. I would def do the MR-S

That's very much my thought process! That's something I love about the Fit... I can flog it and have my fun without ever coming close to breaking the law. In a lower, lighter, open top car (all of which, besides the earlier 1.6L Miata, make more power than the Fit.) it's going to feel plenty fast!
My inability to use the CTS-V's massive power for more than a split second does indeed detract from the fun. More power is always appealing, but less power could mean more time to play!

Granted, the S2000 isn't THAT powerful. In regards to it's output, it's astounding... 240hp from 2.0L is bonkers. But it may not be so much power that I still couldn't have my fun without breaking the law in .5sec.

The 1st gen Miata and the MR2 are cars that I'd likely be able to wail on and never have to worry about speeding. 3rd gen Miata isn't nearly as powerful as the S2000... but even that may be powerful enough to get me into trouble.

As for the interiors go, I honestly think the Miata might have the best interior of all. I haven't sat in an MR2, but in pictures and videos, you're right... it's a little Corolla-ish. I've been in one S2000, and it was a hideous blue... kinda turned me off of it. Seriously, it looked like someone shoved a firecracker up a Smurf's ass and locked him in the car. The S2000 undoubtedly has the best seats of all (aside maybe from an optional upgrade for the Miata...) and I may like the interior in a color that doesn't suck... but my only S2000 interior experience was not a good one.

[Accrdwgnguy]

My buddy searched for about a year and a half to find the perfect S2000, and looked at a whole bunch of them. He didn't want a salvage title or one that was modded, or had a ton of miles. He looked at a couple that were perfect in everyway, but if it had a salvage title he passed. So he found one, 2000 model year, 50 k miles, stock not modded, it even had the factory installed battery still in it. He paid 15k for it.

But here's my honest opinion. Use that money to build a good sized garage. You need it. The cb7 has been wasting away for YEARS outside. Build your dream garage, get all the junk inside and fix what you have now. You can build a basic 24x40 for under 20k. I have a 24x40 and have my Olds, C10, Malibu wagon and an Accord inside right now, they all fit with room to spare! Which reminds me, I gotta go finish my oil change.

[XCRN]

This scene ruined the 1st gen Miata for me.
I have never figured out why the Youtube embed does not work for me so here is the link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3TJC2HSjRI

[CyborgGT]

I seriously dislike most Americans' mentality towards foreign performance cars. You go anywhere else in the world, and the Miata is generally regarded as one of the greatest 'pure sports cars' ever made. Here... it's faaaabulouuuus!

[deevergote]

My buddy searched for about a year and a half to find the perfect S2000, and looked at a whole bunch of them. He didn't want a salvage title or one that was modded, or had a ton of miles. He looked at a couple that were perfect in everyway, but if it had a salvage title he passed. So he found one, 2000 model year, 50 k miles, stock not modded, it even had the factory installed battery still in it. He paid 15k for it.

But here's my honest opinion. Use that money to build a good sized garage. You need it. The cb7 has been wasting away for YEARS outside. Build your dream garage, get all the junk inside and fix what you have now. You can build a basic 24x40 for under 20k. I have a 24x40 and have my Olds, C10, Malibu wagon and an Accord inside right now, they all fit with room to spare! Which reminds me, I gotta go finish my oil change.

No room on my property for a garage, unless I plop it right in the middle of the back yard. The Fit is on its last legs, and I'm sick of fixing it (sure, I could keep fixing it and drive it for years... but I'm REALLY tired of it after nearly 400,000 miles!)
A new house is coming in 3 years or so. That house will have a 2 car garage... minimum. The CB will also be fixed, or sold... still deciding.

This scene ruined the 1st gen Miata for me.
I have never figured out why the Youtube embed does not work for me so here is the link.

You have to cut out everything but that nonsense code after v=. It's weird.
Of course, my Flash plugin crashed... so I'll watch it in the morning when I reset. Though I don't know if I want to ruin the Miata for myself!

I seriously dislike most Americans' mentality towards foreign performance cars. You go anywhere else in the world, and the Miata is generally regarded as one of the greatest 'pure sports cars' ever made. Here... it's faaaabulouuuus!

I think the Miata's reputation here has improved a bit over the years. It's really only the most hardcore musclehead with blinders that seems to see it (or any foreign performance car) that way. Most people I've talked to in recent times seem to regard the Miata as a perfect example of a pure sports car, albeit a slow one.

[XCRN]

I seriously dislike most Americans' mentality towards foreign performance cars. You go anywhere else in the world, and the Miata is generally regarded as one of the greatest 'pure sports cars' ever made. Here... it's faaaabulouuuus!

I agree that it is probably one of the better cheap performance cars out there and yet some how after years of hearing that it is faaaabulouuuuus!!! I can't get over that. Shame, I saw one guy go 35mph around 90 degree right turn in an intersection no problem.